Users in Crimea

Greetings Frederick,

I tried not to interfere in the debate because I can not add to words of Dudka, va-deam and others nothing new.

I am one of the old residents of the project in Ukraine and I think that made a lot of useful. I do not want that other members broke already made arrangements in inappropriate ways. There is a proposals system, if they want to change something.

At the beginning I had a choice of which language to use for drawing my home city Dnipropetrovsk a Russian or Ukrainian. Moreover, at that time no agreement on the use of language did not exist. The choice should be obvious as the local population speaks mostly Russian. I use Russian in everyday communication. However, all documents, treaties, regulations made only in Ukrainian. On the main workplace where I work during the discussion of legislative moments all employees switch from Russian to Ukrainian well and not feel discomfort.

But I decided if I live in Ukraine, I have to use the official language. I took part and made the most of the translation into Ukrainian for the osm.org to promote this decision. I translated into Ukrainian Merkaartor and JOSM. Now I try to keep actual state of Ukrainian translation for JOSM and gradually translate manual and instructions for it.

Since OSM is a public project, I participated in discussions of proposals concerning the rules of drawing objects on the map of Ukraine and took part in the vote. Sometimes my opinion was opposite to votes of others but I used the decisions that were taken by the community. I’m before and now will to follow accepted agreements.

Those such as kangaroo, primarily show disrespect to all other project participants by their actions, unwillingness to discuss issues and violations of the accepted agreement. They do not contribute by their actions to community cohesion, but only bring hatred and division in the common cause. Our community is very small and after the actions of these persons it may shrink or even disappear. I was very concerned about it.

I appeal to you as to respected person in the project, asking, first of all pay attention to compliance by all parties accepted agreements and secondly, as soon as possible admit tag «name» as an old one, which is undesirable for use worldwide.

Sincerely,
Andygol

Hi Frederik,

You can’t rely on signs in Ukraine like You do in Germany. Here is one example from many: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6qn4D0aGU4
This street has name “Червоноврмійська” than it was sort of renamed in “Велика Васильківська” and even new signs were installed on streets. But now (2nd March 2012) new signs with the old name were installed again, because the renaming was not correct or something like this. So you can imagine, if this kind of situation is possible in the capital, you can expect much worse situation in regions. This is my point of view on “truth on the ground” question in ukraine.

Second point is new users. At the beginning it is difficult to understand that OSM is a community project, and one is not mapping for himself, but for everyone. But here we have a person that is literally saying “where I was born, I will talk on the language I want, and I will map in a language I want.” It is not’ they own playground. I am sure You still remember Korintenkacker and his clones. I think You will also not welcome, if someone in Marzahn, Berlin will write street names in the “name” tag in russian language or arabic language in Wedding and Kreuzberg, only because there are so many russian/arabic speaking people living there.

iONiX

Hm. Yep.
Road signs and street names in Ukraine is far from “ordnung”. For example, there is the building in Kharkiv (Ukraine), at the “Чередніченківський провулок, 7” (Cherednichenkivsky lane, 7), but it have a sign “Чередніченківська вулиця 7” (Cherednichenkivska street, 7). And as far as I know, Cherednichenkivska street is abcent at all in official Kharkiv street list (info from mr. VF, mapper from TravelGPS mappers team).

http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?pid=260520

Same problem - names in Switzerland - french and german. So, this is not only ukrainian issue. I think it’s time to declare name as deprecated and find best solution to display name:* that user prefer.

Dear mappers in the Ukraine,

DWG have come up with the resolution below. This resolution does not end the case; it just describes what we expect from involved parties until an amicable solution can be found. We would really, really like everyone to shake hands and be friends - after all, all of us are in this project together and we want OSM to be a success!

I hope that the discussion can be led in a civil and friendly fashion by all mappers involved.

Bye
Frederik

OSMF Data Working Group

Resolution regarding edit wars in the Crimea (Ukraine), issued 2012-07-31.

  1. Background

The Crimea peninsula is part of Ukraine. Official language in Ukraine is Ukrainian. (Additional official languages may be defined by regional authorities but state regarding the Crimea is unclear.) The Crimea has a majority of Russian speakers and Russian is used on the ground. Road signs in the Crimea are often in Russian although it has been claimed that these should, legally, be in Ukrainian (unclear). Many streets in the Crimea have been initially mapped with Russian in the “name” tag. Ukraine community operates various tools/bots that modify the name tags and tries to ensure objects are properly tagged with all three of name:uk, name:ru, and name:en. In the process, the “name” tag was often set to the Ukrainian version which alienated some Russian-language mappers in the Crimea and this led to edit wars and vitriolic forum discussions. Position of Ukrainian mappers is (1) that they have a community policy to use Ukrainian in the name tag because that is the official language; (2) that if anyone wants something else they should challenge that policy; (3) that if someone wants to see the map in Russian they could use one of a number of existing web services that renders all names in Russian.

This is just intended to be a short introduction for the casual reader. If anything in this introduction is inaccurate it does not change our resolution.

  1. Issues considered by DWG

2.1. Local knowledge - Enlisting local people to contribute their knowledge to OSM is an important goal for OSM.

2.2. Community - It is in OSM’s interest to have a community peacefully working together.

2.3. Edit wars - prolonged edit wars damage community relations, create unnecessary load on our infrastructure, and make our data less usable. They are to be avoided.

2.4. On-the-ground-rule - http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Disputes#On_the_Ground_Rule

  1. Resolution

We ask all involved parties to refrain from “edit warring”. If true vandalism is detected by the community then it is ok to revert it; if however there is a point of contention behind this “vandalism” and the alleged vandal comes back to revert the revert, then the community should seek help from DWG instead of engaging in an edit war as it has happened in this case.

We hope that the Ukrainian community can find an amicable solution with Crimea mappers. Such a solution must necessarily include local mappers, and efforts must be made to reach out to them. It is not sufficient to execute some kind of proposal process and say “you can participate in the vote if you want”. We acknowledge that this is difficult, especially given the rather un-civil way in which some Crimea mappers have behaved in this discussion, but if they are not included in the solution then the problem cannot be resolved. Even though the Crimea is part of Ukraine, this does not necessarily put the Ukraine OSM community in a position where they can rule over the Crimea OSM community.

Until such a solution is agreed upon, we ask everyone to stick to the “on the ground” rule. In particular, this means:

  • You can set name:uk and name:ru with whatever seems correct; removing or deliberately falsifying these tags is not acceptable and will be treated as vandalism.

  • For the non-postfixed “name” tag, the only acceptable value is what is physically on the street sign, or whatever sign is appropriate if the object in question is not a street.

  • Never change the “name” tag unless you have personally been at the place or seen a photo of the particular object and a sign containing the name.

  • It is not enough to say “ is the official language” or “There is a law that says street signs must be in the language”. You have to see the actual sign.

  • If there are signs in different languages, or one sign with different languages on it, then both names may be tagged together in the “name” tag; any edit warring about the order of names is not acceptable.

We will re-set all “name” tags in the Crimea that have been changed in April 2012 or later to the March 2012 version. After that, changes are only permitted according to the above “on the ground” rule.

We encourage the Ukrainian community to set up a tile server that shows all objects with their “name:uk” tag, so that users of the map have a choice between the “all Russian” names (a rendering that already exists on openstreetmap.by among others), “all Ukrainian” names (a rendering that does not yet exist to our knowledge), or “all names as given on the ground” (the default rendering on openstreetmap.org). The operators of openstreetmap.by have offered to add a “name:uk” rendering to their system, and if required, OSMF can offer additional resources to make this happen.

Hi Frederik,

may I ask You some additional information?

  1. Will be same decision made in other parts of the world, if similar problems will come up?
  2. Information on signs is more important and should be retained in OSM DB even if its proven to be wrong through legislation rulings?

And here example, why this DWG decision can not be a final decision!
According to decision of DWG, I am allowed to put in name on this street:

  • Горпіщенко вулиця - based on this sign
  • Горпищенко улица - based on this sign
    In both cases it would be correct and not against the decision, because:
  • this are two different signs
  • they are not installed under each other
  • moreover, they are installed in totally different places

Kind regards,
iONiX

Hmmm…
This resolution lead to mixing ukrainian and russian names and can not solve the problem :frowning:

Great, now i can split my street into three parts using a 25 years old road sign written in russian. Who cares that the name was changed twice since that time - we have a road sign “on the ground”. And this is just one of many cases.

This falls under the “there are signs in different languages” so in this case dual-language tag should be used.

Yeah, now we can’t rely on consistency of “name” tag so we should implement wider use of “name:*” tags in converters and renderers

However, I still hope for a more amicable solution. For example, Belarusian community decided to use Russian language in “name” tag in spite of the fact that there are lot of Belarusian street signs in Minsk (I don’t know how it is in other cities). For rendering in Belarusian language they use separate Mapnik server.

What if I see only one of those signs, change the name tag, and will be blocked because of violation of the DWG decision?

Ok, next case. It seems, this sign does not have status part. In both languages name of the street is “Кожанова”, but status part in ukrainian would be “вулиця” in russian “улица”. Should status part be removed from street name completely?

For me personally it would be vandalism to remove status part (based on real sign). One city can have different streets with same name but different status (eg. avenue, street, bystreet). If all status parts are removed, it would be difficult to find desired street/avenue/bystreet.

Граждане, украиноговорящие, хватит высасывать проблему из пальца. Врач сказал в морг, значит в морг. Ни чего плохого с картой и базой не случится, просто всё придёт в соответствие, а не как вы хотели в ваших эротических фантазиях. Не принял ещё народ Крыма украинский, как и на большей территории Украины. Ну и что, что он (украинский язык) навязывается всеми кому не лень, собирая политический капитал. Я в своё время украинский только на 3 кнопке ТВ слышал, да в редких учебных документальных фильмах в школе. И с тех пор всё так же и осталось. Приезжайте, посмотрите.

I believe it would be interesting for woodpecker to read those comments in Russian. They clearly prove that it WAS actually vandalism and that those guys clearly aren’t cooperative.

Dear Frederik, we are dissappointed by this non-decision.

DWG give basically gave a carte blanche to an utter mess in big part of Ukraine.

Open questions are:

  • What to do with cities mapped in Ukrainian from the very beginning? A good example is Alupka, where Vetrov used to start edit wars.

  • What to do when on the ground parts of a street has name in Russian, and another part is in Ukrainian

  • What to do when buildings have Russian spelling, but all of the direction signs are in Ukrainian

  • What to do in other cities. Majority of the country has all of the above problems

As of the resolution itself, you state that “Road signs in the Crimea are often in Russian although it has been claimed that these should, legally, be in Ukrainian (unclear)”, although you were pointed to Ukrainian Constitution, as well as you were told that every citizen of the state has his address spelled in Ukrainian in his passport. You state “Such a solution must necessarily include local mappers … but if they are not included in the solution then the problem cannot be resolved”, but you were told number of times that they deliberately ignore any calls to participate in such solution. You are calling to “Never change the “name” tag unless you have personally been at the place or seen a photo of the particular object and a sign containing the name”, however every participant in the discussion was number of times in Crimea, and many saw personally names in Ukrainian, moreover there are number of open sources such as Yandex Panoramas which could be used even by a foreigner to double check, and you were presented with direct links.

What we were actually seeking is to have a simple statement “Use only Russian, or use only Ukrainian, or put both in the name tag”. On the ground rule will not work. Moreover, mix of the languages will lead a hardly usable state of Crimea map, particularly in address searches.

I expect that in the coming days we will see mass renames of the whole Crimea territory into Russian, despite of any on-the-ground rules, and Ukrainian names never added by the language haters involved in the dispute, since people who were doing some job in the peninsula will be afraid to be banned by non-following these easy to twist whatever way rules.

Just to illustrate, here is my translation of the last message from Kengaru:

I will not comment on the vile language and the utter disrespect, but just have to point out that (1) majority of the participants primarily speak Russian and live in cities speaking Russian, Ukrainian is their second language. This includes everyone of those engaged in the “edit wars” (2) OSM is not place for politics (3) all of us were in Crimea, it is the biggest resort in the country and many of us saw the signs. All of us saw the signs in Ukrainian on Yandex Panoramas which were quoted during the discussion.

Unfortunately, all of the points I mention here were already raised several times, but are being kept silently ignored.

On 31 July 2012 01:24, Frederik Ramm frederik@remote.org wrote:

Dear Eugene, Alex, and mappers in Ukraine and the Crimea,
Gentlemen, I replied publicly on the forums, but now I realised that the person who wrote to DWG was actually CC’ed on this mail. That is Alex mrpsb@bk.ru.

I performed a quick investigation, and was quite amazed, that the person is actually lives in Moscow, Russia.

Here is the chain:

o User ‘Grav’ publishes a request to send a crack, and puts on his e-mail: http://www.sukhoi.ru/forum/showthread.php?t=14328&p=175187#post175187 The site is dedicated to aviation.

o His profile right on that site among other things has: Place of Living: Moscow (Местонахождение: Москва): http://www.sukhoi.ru/forum/member.php?u=1160

o Right there we can see link to his site: http://npcspasop.ru/ where he is an admin, and acts under same nickname. The site is about rescue troops which use helicopters.

o The contact address published there is in Moscow too: http://www.npcspasop.ru/modules.php?name=Pages&go=page&pid=12

o He posts that he found a nice project OpenStreetMap: http://npcspasop.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=544 This also explains his early edits which are in Moscow: http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Vetrov/edits?page=13

o Judging by his posts, he was living in Russia at least in 2011: http://npcspasop.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=541 (there he encourages to fight with bribery of Russia politics)

o Additional search gives his full name, “Alex Grav” and once again his place of residence, Moscow. These days the page exists only in web archive: http://web.archive.org/web/20031112133615/http://www.squadcenter.net/index.php?p_view=yes&page=13

Nick ‘Vetrov’ roughly could be translated as ‘Windy one’ which completes the puzzle.

This is quite unfortunate and unpleasant that you were fooled even with such basic information of who lives where and as such can judge the truth on the ground.

Eugene

I was in Crimea and can confirm that this is a lie. A lot of TV channels are in Ukrainian there, not just the third one. :smiley:

Personally, I support reconsideration of the “Truth on the ground” rule. OSM usually have more info than there is on the ground – post indexes and so on. Sometimes, building have two adresses, but there is only one of them “on the ground”, but everybody who lives there know that it’s dual-addressed. As mentioned by other participants of the discussion, in some countries there is a real mess with street signs and if we end up following them we’ll get a really messy map.

В советские времена было только три канала. Два московских и один киевский.
Третий канал использовался больше для пропоганды советского образа жизни и прославления компартии.
Все новые и интересные фильмы показывали на первом канале а третий был совсем скучный.

I just refute the “since those times everything stays as is” statement.

Мда… Захватывающее чтиво. Аж почти до двух ночи засиделся перечитывая - такой закрученный сюжет. Украинское сообщество, если вдруг действительно где-то кому-то понадобится мнение картографов, проживающих в Крыму, можете обращаться. Я за “букву закона”.

Читали или нет, но начало срача обсуждения тут http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=12367