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#1 2022-07-19 02:26:55

Tirkon
Member
From: Ostfriesland / Germany
Registered: 2009-01-27
Posts: 316

Purpose of the construction work N7 autosnelweg Groningen

Hello and Sorry, I can't write in Dutch.

In Groningen there is a major construction site on the N7 that has been going on for two years and does not seem to be finished yet. Is the purpose of the construction work to turn the N7 autosnelweg into an A7 motorway?

Thank you very much for an answer.

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#2 2022-07-19 02:49:53

jonrellim
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Registered: 2019-05-18
Posts: 39
Website

Re: Purpose of the construction work N7 autosnelweg Groningen

I don't know the area myself but according to these websites, it will take another two years until it is fully finished. It seems like there are numerous things changing, such as part of the autosnelweg shall be lowered underground and several junctions will be greatly changed.

The websites are in dutch and i can't seem to find an official translated page for it.

https://www.aanpakringzuid.nl/
https://www.rijkswaterstaat.nl/wegen/pr … -groningen

Map of current construction: https://slimmekaart.groningenbereikbaar … ukonist#!/

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#3 2022-07-19 03:49:30

Tirkon
Member
From: Ostfriesland / Germany
Registered: 2009-01-27
Posts: 316

Re: Purpose of the construction work N7 autosnelweg Groningen

jonrellim wrote:

The websites are in dutch

I can help myself with a translation machine. Thank you for the links. :-) In fact, OpenStreetMap is used there cool:
https://www.aanpakringzuid.nl/actueel/n … damwanden/
(scroll down)

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#4 2022-07-19 08:09:11

IIVQ
Member
Registered: 2014-11-12
Posts: 908

Re: Purpose of the construction work N7 autosnelweg Groningen

No, afaik it will stay an "autoweg" (motorroad) even though the profile becomes more highway-like: no junctions with lights anymore, all on- and offramps, and a tunnel under the "Sterrebos".

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#5 2022-07-19 14:46:07

Tirkon
Member
From: Ostfriesland / Germany
Registered: 2009-01-27
Posts: 316

Re: Purpose of the construction work N7 autosnelweg Groningen

With the help of your infos, I was able to find a visualisation of the desired state on Youtube. In particular, the redesign of the traffic-light-crossing at the "Julianaplein" and the tunnel under the "Sterrebos" become clear. In this video at 1:05 min, the road is still labelled "N7".

If anyone is interested:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzbhPzmnTio

Theoretically, one could use it to map the complete "whatever=construction"-site on OSM. However, this could lead to the current stäte being poorly recognisable. The disadvantages could outweigh the advantages.

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#6 2022-07-20 13:45:34

Tirkon
Member
From: Ostfriesland / Germany
Registered: 2009-01-27
Posts: 316

Re: Purpose of the construction work N7 autosnelweg Groningen

At the moment OSM navigators do not consider that the longest main route of the Netherlands, the Rijksweg 7, is long-term interrupted in Groningen between "Knooppunt Euvelgunne" and "Europaweg":
https://graphhopper.com/maps/?point=53. … nStreetMap

By means of a webcam at the exit on the Europaweg it can be seen on the Internet, that there is no physically existing road.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-BGNeHLX58

IMHO, at least that should be mapped in OSM. Otherwise it is not useful even for large scale navigation. For example, for me passing border from Germany at Nieuweschans, it is more convenient to leave the Rijksweg already at the exit Westerbroek and from there to use the Europaweg.
https://graphhopper.com/maps/?point=53. … nStreetMap

This would be routed by the OSM Navigator, if there were a construction site markings on the Rijksweg. This is how we do it in Germany. I do not know if this is also common in the Netherlands. If no objection, I would map the section as a construction site.

Besides this break, there are many routes around the exits of Rijksweg 7 that can't be used either. But those could only be mapped by someone with signed local knowledge, which I don't have and therefore don't do. I only experience the interruption of the Rijksweg.

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#7 2022-07-20 23:47:17

HenkL
Member
From: Groningen - NL
Registered: 2015-09-07
Posts: 879

Re: Purpose of the construction work N7 autosnelweg Groningen

Those roads will be open again by the end of August. I consider this as a short term interruption.
As stated on the Wiki :
"As OSM data is often used offline (and therefore may be several months old), only tag construction sites if they are planned to be closed for at least six to nine months."

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#8 2022-07-21 01:41:11

Friendly_Ghost
Member
From: Netherlands
Registered: 2020-05-20
Posts: 349

Re: Purpose of the construction work N7 autosnelweg Groningen

HenkL wrote:

Those roads will be open again by the end of August. I consider this as a short term interruption.

Even for short term road closures you can tag the road with conditional restrictions. For example:

access:conditional=no @ (start_date - end_date)

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#9 2022-07-21 05:23:01

Martin Borsje
Moderator
From: Puth
Registered: 2011-10-22
Posts: 3,143

Re: Purpose of the construction work N7 autosnelweg Groningen

Friendly_Ghost wrote:
HenkL wrote:

Those roads will be open again by the end of August. I consider this as a short term interruption.

Even for short term road closures you can tag the road with conditional restrictions. For example:

access:conditional=no @ (start_date - end_date)

But as Henk rightfully mentioned the value of this tag is rather limited.

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#10 2022-07-21 07:42:34

Geim
Member
From: MM
Registered: 2017-03-29
Posts: 851

Re: Purpose of the construction work N7 autosnelweg Groningen

HenkL wrote:

"As OSM data is often used offline (and therefore may be several months old), only tag construction sites if they are planned to be closed for at least six to nine months."

I'm not sure if this is still valid. More and more apps use either "live" data or refresh data more often than once every six months.

What is the harm to use a conditional access? If a router can't handle it, no harm is done. If it can handle it, it should use an alternative route during the time given in the conditional access, even if we (mappers) forget to re move the conditional tag when the construction site is gone.

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#11 2022-07-21 09:06:51

IIVQ
Member
Registered: 2014-11-12
Posts: 908

Re: Purpose of the construction work N7 autosnelweg Groningen

My stance on roadworks like these:
* If the new situation is similar to the old situation: don't close or use conditional closures (depending on road status and construction duration)
* If the new situation if different from the old situation (different layout of junctions, alignment moved etc), close them off immediately after they are closed on the ground. If possible, map the new situation already and open on the day it opens.

In this case the second option should be chosen.

People who use (near-)live maps will have the right maps.
People who update infrequently will always have problems. They might get a snapshot of a road just when it was closed. But they might miss roads that are new or completely moved overnight (e.g. a bridge that was closed and a new bridge opened a few hundred metres further down the river). There is no solution to make both people happy. I would chose for

It would be cool if you could map conditional construction, something along the lines of

highway:conditional=construction @ (jan 1 2022 - jun 30 2022); motorway @ (jul 2022 - )
construction:conditional=motorway @ (jan 1 20222, jun 30 2022) 

such that at july 2022 the road would automatically jump from construction to motorway.

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#12 2022-07-21 09:16:35

IIVQ
Member
Registered: 2014-11-12
Posts: 908

Re: Purpose of the construction work N7 autosnelweg Groningen

And as an addition: for longer-duration closures, construction should be used and not "access". It is very inconvenient to have to debug routing when no visual cues are available to see why a certain route is not taken.
I have experienced this myself when I had made a highway-offramp close to my house accessible only during peak hours (which was the actual case for 3 months) then left it at that value for 3 years before noticing this when I changed the final version. All the time I had wondered why Osmand at times suggested me the one route, at other times the other one.

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#13 2022-07-21 10:50:50

noordfiets
Member
From: Groningen stad
Registered: 2010-02-14
Posts: 862

Re: Purpose of the construction work N7 autosnelweg Groningen

Current construction is maintained  by 85Bas. I don't agree with all his ediits, but in general he follows the thoughts mentioned above.
The final end of construction should be 2025, with 2024 as the year traffice should be able to use the Julianaplein again.
The Julianaplein will become a multi-level crossing hidden in a hill, allready known locally as the 'teletubby-hill'. A hill I can 'admire' out of my window.

Short constructionworks/closures should not be tagged as there are clearly marked detours. These detours are specifically designed to prevent congestion on minor roads and additional traffic in living aerea's. Routers however tend to reroute using the shortest route, which is undesirable to those who live along these streets.
If, like Tirkon suggests, all traffice from Germany would use exit Westerbroek, the Europaplein would become congested. That is why the official detour is using the north and west of the 'ring'.

@IIVQ I tried a conditional construction on a cycleway once, but found that routers don't deal with them.

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#14 2022-07-21 18:27:35

85Bas
Member
From: Groningen
Registered: 2012-01-07
Posts: 121

Re: Purpose of the construction work N7 autosnelweg Groningen

Tirkon wrote:

the Rijksweg 7, is long-term interrupted

You'd be forgiven for thinking that, since you're probably used to the infamous German Baustellen. However, this part of the road is only closed for six weeks and like others have said this should not be represented on the base layer (besides, optionally, access:conditional).

noordfiets wrote:

Current construction is maintained  by 85Bas.

While it is true that I do a lot of edits pertaining to the southern ring road, I am definitely not the only one. So many things are changing every week and I cannot possibly keep track of everything. I am very thankful others are making edits as well and this project is by no means "claimed" by me.

One thing I don't have time for, for example, is adding conditional access tags to every short term road closure (and there are many). Other mappers are very welcome to add those if they feel like it.

I personally use navigation apps with a secondary traffic layer that keeps track of road closures and other traffic problems, on top of the OSM base layer. To me, this is the most logical way to display temporary changes. I believe that is the standard we should follow when mapping (as mentioned in the wiki article linked by HenkL). There is no mapping service on earth that would add changes as temporary as the current N7 closure to its base layer.

Last edited by 85Bas (2022-07-21 18:29:54)

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#15 2022-07-21 18:58:26

Tirkon
Member
From: Ostfriesland / Germany
Registered: 2009-01-27
Posts: 316

Re: Purpose of the construction work N7 autosnelweg Groningen

HenkL wrote:

Those roads will be open again by the end of August.

Thank you for this information. I did not find it in Dutch. Something like that is the reason I posted it on the forum before I put a hand on OSM.

HenkL wrote:

I consider this as a short term interruption.

I fully agree and therefore will not change anything.

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#16 2022-07-21 19:07:05

Tirkon
Member
From: Ostfriesland / Germany
Registered: 2009-01-27
Posts: 316

Re: Purpose of the construction work N7 autosnelweg Groningen

noordfiets wrote:

The Julianaplein will become a multi-level crossing hidden in a hill, allready known locally as the 'teletubby-hill'. A hill I can 'admire' out of my window.

Wouldn't you like to publish with this exclusive view a photo series of the formation of the Teletubby hill ehm ... of the Knooppunt Julianaplein on Wikimedia Commons for this Wikipedia article?:
https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knooppunt_Julianaplein

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#17 2022-07-22 09:26:14

noordfiets
Member
From: Groningen stad
Registered: 2010-02-14
Posts: 862

Re: Purpose of the construction work N7 autosnelweg Groningen

Tirkon wrote:
noordfiets wrote:

The Julianaplein will become a multi-level crossing hidden in a hill, allready known locally as the 'teletubby-hill'. A hill I can 'admire' out of my window.

Wouldn't you like to publish with this exclusive view a photo series of the formation of the Teletubby hill ehm ... of the Knooppunt Julianaplein on Wikimedia Commons for this Wikipedia article?:
https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knooppunt_Julianaplein

Currently there is no hill but a crater. Construction has reached it's lowest point, a conrete basin for rainwater.
The final situation is here: https://i.regiogroei.cloud/1104x620/dbd … e84068.jpg
( seen from the south , A28 )

There are several video's on youtube documenting the construction.
You could also take a look at this website, in Englisch: https://www.groningenbereikbaar.nl/en/c … -situation
It will give you an impression of the vast number of traffic disruptions. Even we locals can't keep up.

As for Wikipedia. The article misses out on one thing. In the original design of the 'ring' a second more outworth laying ring was included. So planning was futureproof. However, it was decided not to build this second ring. That was a political/financial decision.

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#18 2022-07-22 09:48:04

noordfiets
Member
From: Groningen stad
Registered: 2010-02-14
Posts: 862

Re: Purpose of the construction work N7 autosnelweg Groningen

85Bas wrote:

I personally use navigation apps with a secondary traffic layer that keeps track of road closures and other traffic problems, on top of the OSM base layer. To me, this is the most logical way to display temporary changes. I believe that is the standard we should follow when mapping (as mentioned in the wiki article linked by HenkL). There is no mapping service on earth that would add changes as temporary as the current N7 closure to its base layer.

I agree. One of the major obstacles in the use of OSM is that all information is on a single layer. Seperating ( and highlighting ) items involves designing your own viewer and mapstyles. I use off-line maps for cycling with a layer added for cycleways in good old-fashioned fat red lines ( for the below 50 members: the style of the old paper ANWB maps ).
All the information is in the database, but getting to it requires some work.

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#19 2022-07-26 17:16:21

Tirkon
Member
From: Ostfriesland / Germany
Registered: 2009-01-27
Posts: 316

Re: Purpose of the construction work N7 autosnelweg Groningen

Regarding the conditional closure on OSM:

We have two navigation services on osm.org. I have noticed on the basis of another street that the closing on a date works at the service of the company Graphhopper. On the following piece of street you can see which condition I entered three days ago:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/26030 … 755/7.3323

And indeed: Right on time since today it is routed via the detour:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/direction … 864/7.3564

It does not work on the other navigation service OSRM. As far as I know, it is maintained by volunteer OSM community members. And the server is run by the german OSM-Chapter called Fossgis.

For the smartphone navigation service OSMAND, I don't have an updated map since my edit.

Edit one day later:
I do not know why. But one day later on July 27,  04:29 it no longer works on Graphhopper.

Last edited by Tirkon (2022-07-27 03:34:21)

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#20 2022-07-26 18:03:12

Jillis E
Member
From: Amersfoort
Registered: 2019-06-08
Posts: 470
Website

Re: Purpose of the construction work N7 autosnelweg Groningen

FOSSGIS is not related to OSM but to OSGeo.

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#21 2022-07-26 18:17:49

Tirkon
Member
From: Ostfriesland / Germany
Registered: 2009-01-27
Posts: 316

Re: Purpose of the construction work N7 autosnelweg Groningen

Jillis E wrote:

FOSSGIS is not related to OSM but to OSGeo.

Since I am one of the session guides at the many Fossgis conferences and represent Fossgis at an another conference, I can assure you that it is also local chapter of OSM since 2018. The annual OSM conference takes place since 2010 at the Fossgis conference. This has led many users of free geospatial software to switch to OSM:

https://www.youtube.com/user/fossgis/videos

Free geo-software and free geo-data under one roof. :-)

Last edited by Tirkon (2022-07-26 19:28:43)

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#22 2022-07-27 08:49:47

Jillis E
Member
From: Amersfoort
Registered: 2019-06-08
Posts: 470
Website

Re: Purpose of the construction work N7 autosnelweg Groningen

Verzeihung, that's how I (mis)understood it.

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