You are not logged in.

#1 2022-05-03 19:26:03

SimonPoole
Member
Registered: 2010-03-14
Posts: 2,175

garmin.openstreetmap.nl (again)

Apologies for writing in English.

For some reason it seems as the topic hasn't been raised on this forum, even though AFAIK this is the main Dutch community channel.

In any case some of you may remember https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=66190 from three years ago. Ignore the over the top title, nobody has ever threatened legal action. Back in 2019 the service had already been an issue for multiple years that reflects badly on OSM as a whole, unluckily this hasn't changed in the mean time.

Grant, with a lot of initial élan, has decided to take this on as one of his first activities, see https://github.com/openstreetmap/operations/issues/615

While not speaking for the OSMF I believe there is a clear interest in hearing the voice of the whole Dutch community on the matter.

Simon

Last edited by SimonPoole (2022-05-03 19:26:55)

Offline

#2 2022-05-03 20:08:22

Jillis E
Member
From: Amersfoort
Registered: 2019-06-08
Posts: 451
Website

Re: garmin.openstreetmap.nl (again)

Maybe the Dutch community doesn't realise how big the problem with that site/service is.
You won't get to hear the whole community though, only the part that frequents this forum.

I'd say either fix the service, or (rather) remove it. Why that is such a big issue is the thing I really don't understand.

(And English isn't a problem, many of us are almost bilingual.)

Last edited by Jillis E (2022-05-03 20:22:11)

Offline

#3 2022-05-03 22:10:07

Kogacarlo
Member
From: Venloslenk
Registered: 2010-08-11
Posts: 1,015

Re: garmin.openstreetmap.nl (again)

SimonPoole wrote:

hearing the voice of the whole Dutch community

For my part, I don't have a clue what this is about.
And @Jillis, I'm not bilingual but pentalingual.

Last edited by Kogacarlo (2022-05-03 22:11:58)

Offline

#4 2022-05-03 22:50:01

SimonPoole
Member
Registered: 2010-03-14
Posts: 2,175

Re: garmin.openstreetmap.nl (again)

Kogacarlo wrote:
SimonPoole wrote:

hearing the voice of the whole Dutch community

For my part, I don't have a clue what this is about.
And @Jillis, I'm not bilingual but pentalingual.

garmin.openstreetmap.nl was (well "is" because people still try to use it) extremely popular site to produce custom maps from OSM for Garmin devices, widely published on youtube and other places on the Internet. The problem is that it hasn't worked at all as of late and only on and off for the better part of half a decade. There are some secondary considerations (not declaring who's operating the site and asking for donations without stating that they are not going to "OpenStreetMap" and so on), but the not working bit is the most important one as that causes both reputational damage and workload on completely non-involved people.

There's a further angle wrt openstreetmap.nl of who is really operating it and if this is the state of affairs the Dutch community wants, but as said that is not an immediate concern.

PS: wrt English: I'm fully aware of the language skills of the Dutch, I was just being polite.

Last edited by SimonPoole (2022-05-03 22:59:58)

Offline

#5 2022-05-04 00:21:59

Famlam
Member
From: Nijmegen
Registered: 2019-11-10
Posts: 191

Re: garmin.openstreetmap.nl (again)

I've never used that website so I'll stay out of the discussion, but it seems the website now redirects to another site

Online

#6 2022-05-04 06:09:51

ligfietser
Member
Registered: 2008-10-09
Posts: 5,350
Website

Re: garmin.openstreetmap.nl (again)

Thanks Simon for informing the Dutch community. The shutdown affects also my maps which were on the same server. So until further notice no Openfietsmap updates until this is sorted.

Offline

#7 2022-05-04 06:36:04

Jillis E
Member
From: Amersfoort
Registered: 2019-06-08
Posts: 451
Website

Re: garmin.openstreetmap.nl (again)

Famlam wrote:

it seems the website now redirects to another site

I'm not getting a redirect, the web page is still up, although with a couple of 'Loading data, please wait O'.

Maybe the Dutch community doesn't realise how big the problem with that site/service is.

Or that there's a problem at all.

Last edited by Jillis E (2022-05-04 06:37:58)

Offline

#8 2022-05-04 07:36:40

Martin Borsje
Moderator
From: Puth
Registered: 2011-10-22
Posts: 3,120

Re: garmin.openstreetmap.nl (again)

@Jillis There is a problem: when a (historically) often used site, not only by the Dutch community, effectively is not working any more, for whatever reason, and is still referred to in many places, 'we' have a problem.

Apart from some frustration by intended users not receiving what they want it is, imho, also an OSM(F) issue as, legally true or not, the site refers to and uses OSM, so not working brings reputational damage.

My question would be: apparently Lambertus is not visibly involved in OSM/garmin.openstreetmap.nl, any more for quite some time; I guess that some of us here know about Lambertus' situation and how to reach him (under the proposition that nothing serious occurred him), so all actions to be aimed at reviving this site by taking it over, hosting it somewhere else, etc.

Offline

#9 2022-05-04 07:57:47

ligfietser
Member
Registered: 2008-10-09
Posts: 5,350
Website

Re: garmin.openstreetmap.nl (again)

That's the problem Martin. Since the forum was taken over, nobody was able to contact him ever since. Phone numbers did not exist anymore, I've tried several of his e-mail adresses: no response, Skype: nada. I can live with the message on the redirect site although this does not work on my mobile, there I still get the old site.

Offline

#10 2022-05-04 08:10:07

Martin Borsje
Moderator
From: Puth
Registered: 2011-10-22
Posts: 3,120

Re: garmin.openstreetmap.nl (again)

In that case I support the taking over of that site as mentioned in posting #1 of this thread.
And as well, remove Lambertus as administrator of this very forum.

Offline

#11 2022-05-04 08:39:50

SimonPoole
Member
Registered: 2010-03-14
Posts: 2,175

Re: garmin.openstreetmap.nl (again)

ligfietser wrote:

...The shutdown affects also my maps which were on the same server. So until further notice no Openfietsmap updates until this is sorted.

This is likely an unexpected side effect, have you contacted Grant?

Offline

#12 2022-05-04 08:41:30

SimonPoole
Member
Registered: 2010-03-14
Posts: 2,175

Re: garmin.openstreetmap.nl (again)

Martin Borsje wrote:

In that case I support the taking over of that site as mentioned in posting #1 of this thread.
And as well, remove Lambertus as administrator of this very forum.

This forum is going to be migrated, for better or worse, to Discourse. Current plans are end of this month. With other words this will require new moderators in any case.

Offline

#13 2022-05-04 08:44:40

ligfietser
Member
Registered: 2008-10-09
Posts: 5,350
Website

Re: garmin.openstreetmap.nl (again)

SimonPoole wrote:
ligfietser wrote:

...The shutdown affects also my maps which were on the same server. So until further notice no Openfietsmap updates until this is sorted.

This is likely an unexpected side effect, have you contacted Grant?

No, but I've contacted the maintainer of the server in Germany. He'll take care of this and fix it.

Offline

#14 2022-05-04 09:54:23

Allroads
Member
Registered: 2011-03-05
Posts: 3,250

Re: garmin.openstreetmap.nl (again)

"taking over of that site"

Is this legal?

The software code made by Lambertus, who owns it?

Last edited by Allroads (2022-05-04 10:16:03)

Offline

#15 2022-05-04 12:40:37

Firefishy
Administrator
Registered: 2009-06-01
Posts: 14

Re: garmin.openstreetmap.nl (again)

ligfietser wrote:

Thanks Simon for informing the Dutch community. The shutdown affects also my maps which were on the same server. So until further notice no Openfietsmap updates until this is sorted.

If you need hosting in the interim please do email me. Can host you on the OSM dev server if required.

Offline

#16 2022-05-04 12:41:33

Firefishy
Administrator
Registered: 2009-06-01
Posts: 14

Re: garmin.openstreetmap.nl (again)

ligfietser wrote:

That's the problem Martin. Since the forum was taken over, nobody was able to contact him ever since. Phone numbers did not exist anymore, I've tried several of his e-mail adresses: no response, Skype: nada. I can live with the message on the redirect site although this does not work on my mobile, there I still get the old site.

I believe Stefan may have working contact details for him. Likely best to speak to him.

Offline

#17 2022-05-04 13:08:05

SimonPoole
Member
Registered: 2010-03-14
Posts: 2,175

Re: garmin.openstreetmap.nl (again)

Allroads wrote:

"taking over of that site"

Is this legal?

The software code made by Lambertus, who owns it?

"taking over" currently refers to pointing the relevant domain somewhere else. Outside of a contract existing between Lambertus and the owners of openstreetmap.nl I don't see an issue. As to the software if it hasn't been published on open terms or there is an explicit licence of some kind, it obviously can't be reused, but I don't believe that has been proposed.

I would expect that negotiorum gestio statutes would apply wrt the cleaning up in any case (I believe the Netherlands has corresponding legislation).

Offline

#18 2022-05-04 15:25:55

Jillis E
Member
From: Amersfoort
Registered: 2019-06-08
Posts: 451
Website

Re: garmin.openstreetmap.nl (again)

My legal Latin is a little rusty ;-) but Wikipedia told me 'negotiorum gestio'  is called 'zaakwaarneming' in Dutch civil law (B.W.).

Last edited by Jillis E (2022-05-04 15:27:31)

Offline

#19 2022-05-04 15:43:22

ligfietser
Member
Registered: 2008-10-09
Posts: 5,350
Website

Re: garmin.openstreetmap.nl (again)

Firefishy wrote:

If you need hosting in the interim please do email me. Can host you on the OSM dev server if required.

Yes that would be great, I've sent you a pm.

Offline

#20 2022-05-06 16:59:47

FrankOverman
Member
From: Tilburg
Registered: 2017-12-01
Posts: 1,076

Re: garmin.openstreetmap.nl (again)

I was not aware of this, euh, situation. I agree that such URL with 'OSM' in it needs to work as expected, due to reputation. I now kinda feel guilty for pointing my Geocaching/Garmin friends to the site in question; did so, even last week.
I quickly updated my slides as well, that I tend to spread around in response to people asking me: what is OSM: http://www.rees-five-o.nl/OSM_LocHal_05.pdf; updated the ref for the Garmin people.
BTW, the website redirecting works fine for me today: I am currently facing the (new for me) site: https://extract.bbbike.org

Last edited by FrankOverman (2022-05-06 17:13:14)

Offline

#21 2022-05-06 18:38:07

jb54osm
Member
Registered: 2018-06-03
Posts: 150

Re: garmin.openstreetmap.nl (again)

FrankOverman wrote:

I was not aware of this, euh, situation. I agree that such URL with 'OSM' in it needs to work as expected, due to reputation. I now kinda feel guilty for pointing my Geocaching/Garmin friends to the site in question; did so, even last week.
I quickly updated my slides as well, that I tend to spread around in response to people asking me: what is OSM: http://www.rees-five-o.nl/OSM_LocHal_05.pdf; updated the ref for the Garmin people.
BTW, the website redirecting works fine for me today: I am currently facing the (new for me) site: https://extract.bbbike.org

I read your PDF.
But Maps.me is like dead. A good replacement is Organic Maps. It even allows you to do simple edits in OSM; I have used it a couple of times that way.
https://organicmaps.app/

Organic Maps is a free Android & iOS offline maps app for travelers, tourists, hikers, and cyclists based on top of crowd-sourced OpenStreetMap data and curated with love by MapsWithMe (Maps.Me) founders.

May be change your pdf again ?? wink

Offline

#22 2022-05-13 15:43:55

keesm
Member
From: Bommelerwaard
Registered: 2010-12-12
Posts: 328

Re: garmin.openstreetmap.nl (again)

ligfietser wrote:

Thanks Simon for informing the Dutch community. The shutdown affects also my maps which were on the same server. So until further notice no Openfietsmap updates until this is sorted.

Is this issue already sorted ? (When we can download OFM updates again? )

Last edited by keesm (2022-05-13 15:44:13)

Offline

#23 2022-05-13 17:04:06

ligfietser
Member
Registered: 2008-10-09
Posts: 5,350
Website

Re: garmin.openstreetmap.nl (again)

No unfortunately not yet.
Updates can be temporarily downloaded from
http://osm.dl1thm.de/openfietsmap/benelux/full (or light
or hike or germany) but the NLUUG server is not synchronised.

Last edited by ligfietser (2022-05-13 17:04:23)

Offline

Board footer

Powered by FluxBB