Hi, we are TomTom - let's exchange ideas

Trouwens, geen idee hoe dit verder in de Nederlandse community wordt gevoeld, maar als sommigen voelen dat ze meer in de pap te brokkelen willen hebben, dan is oprichting van een officieel “local chapter” voor Nederland een weg. Dan kom je automatisch ook in de “OSMF Advisory Board” met een van de vertegenwoordigers, en kun je tegenwicht bieden, en in ieder geval semi-officieel meepraten met de corporate members in een soort adviesraad voor de OSMF.

Zie dit lijstje:
https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Advisory_Board
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Foundation/Local_Chapters

Welcome Marjan and other people from TomTom. I am happy to see that you want to work together with us to improve OSM.

Recently I created a forum thread for MapRoulette challenges in the Netherlands. I have added yours to it, so now we have list of 3 challenges to work on.

I have also added a tiny description about MapMetrics to the OSM Wiki here. Right now it’s a stub, so feel free to add more information to it.

Erg vrijblijvend allemaal.
“Each OSMF Local Chapter can have a representative on the Advisory Board, that the OSMF board of directors can consult.”

Als je dan toch iets in de melk te brokkelen wilt hebben, wordt dan Member: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Foundation#Membership een Active Contributor Membership kost je niets: https://join.osmfoundation.org/active-contributor-membership/

Hallo allemaal

Our team carefully read your replies, for which I would like to thank you again. We will take these insights under consideration as we work on our goal of improving the map for the benefit of everyone.

Below are our answers to some of your questions and remarks.

Thanks for providing these links. We know and understand these guidelines, and actually already applied them when we ran a bot to update night-time urban speed limits in Poland (see proposal mentioned in this weeklyOSM summary).

Thank you also for sharing these links. We are familiar with many of them and will be happy to continue to inform ourselves with the ones that are new.

Our apologies, the challenges for the Netherlands were not yet visible. We have fixed this.

Thank you, we really appreciate that you are sharing the challenge with your community.

Thanks for this, as well. We will soon have more information about MapMetrics to share with the community, and would be happy to help answer any questions and take your feedback. We are very enthusiastic about the potential of this new tool to improve the map.

Likewise, we have already gained experience with automated edits in OSM by running the bot to update night-time urban speed limits in Poland that I mentioned earlier in this post.

Is there any further interest in the group in collaborating on one of the projects I mentioned in my first post?

Kind regards,
Marjan

I always have mixed feelings when a commercial company is getting involved with work of volunteers. Maybe if you explain what your plans are in the future with OSM I might get less suspicious, but for now, I look at it from a distance.
Just setting up a maproulette doesn’t give me a warm and fuzzy feelings.

To me three things are really important in OSM:

1. Communication (and a willingness to reach a consensus in debates)
2. Good quality data
3. Attribution on the maps
   I think TomTom is doing a good job with this outreach to us. We can at the very least give them the benefit of the doubt.

There is a relevant discussion on the OSM talk mailing list: https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2021-October/087000.html. You can discuss your concerns with the people there as well.

This message by Steve Coast is also quite interesting: https://www.tomtom.com/blog/maps/the-battle-for-quality-maps/

From my experience in Poland I can’t fault TomTom cooperation-wise. They were always responsive and wanted to do due diligence.
But it is quite concerning we still don’t know what their ultimate goal is. The mouths are suspiciously shut.

They own most of their own stocks (almost 50%) and they are a competitor to Google (but also to OSM). Perhaps someone can tell the rest of the story.

+1

+1

I fail to see the relevance in this and the need to adress anything there. MarjanVan started the discussion here, so I stay.

Maybe you should have a look at this: https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=73739 The discussion speaks for itself. Starting a maproulette isn’t as harmless as it sounds.

According to Steve this is important for him:

1. It must look great (display quality)
2. It must have great routing (data quality)
3. It must be searchable for what you want (geocoding quality)

For routing he probably means MV-routing, that’s where they make their money. Not outdoor navigation.
I’m all for data quality, but routing is just a (tiny) part of that.

P.S. Too bad he removed the copyright notices on the OSM maps in his article.

“Without local knowledge remote mappers are likely to mess up highway classification more.” seems to be the main concern in that other topic. I don’t see how that could do any harm in this case. It’s just a bit of simple quality assurance, not a missing roads challenge.

Zo begint doorgaans een salami-tactiek.
Het begin is onschuldig en onderschrijft zogenaamd de uitgangs principes van OSM.
Maar waar eindigt het ?
Bovendien tellen de slechte ervaringen met onervaren gebruikers van deze “speeltjes” wel degelijk een rol.

Wat te denken van een brug naar een boerenerf met 12 onzinnige tags, zoals maxheight, bus=no, etc etc.
Moet heel NL vol komen te staan met lane_markings=no ?

We hebben meerdere goede mappers die uitstekend in staat zijn om queries te bouwen en fouten op te sporen.
Daar hebben we geen Maproulette challenge voor nodig, die slechts random wordt gebruikt en dus nooit een compleet beeld geeft.

Het lijkt me belangrijk om een onderscheid te maken tussen enerzijds “mappen in NL (en omgeving)” en anderszijds “mogelijke belangenconflicten tussen OSM en commerciële bedrijven/organisaties”. Het ene hoort hier thuis, en hoort voor mijn part in het Nederlands; de andere discussie kan in het Engels maar moet wel op een universelere plaats gebeuren.

Voor een volledige discussie zou er geen onderscheid tussen commercieel en niet-commercieel moeten worden gemaakt.

Geim

Maar waarom moet dat kleine deel dan prominent op de basis (database) kaart zichtbaar zijn ?

Hi everyone,

I’m also providing a Dutch version of this message below, since I see that some of you prefer to communicate in Dutch.

Thanks for sharing some more thoughts.

We understand your worries about corporate editing. We recognize your commitment to your standards and guidelines and respect them. As fellow mapmakers we want to help improve the map, which we’ve already successfully done with other communities (for instance the Polish community, as RicoElectrico mentions).

We’d love to talk about either of the projects we proposed:

• the non-closed polygon challenge,
• the charging station tag fixes, for which we have now also created a challenge in the Netherlands (see this link to MapRoulette).

We could also support you in leveraging MapMetrics to help you with some of your own projects. It is the first release to OSM from Steve Coast’s Innovation team within TomTom, and we are excited about its potential.

We’re also interested to hear if you have any other ideas. We’re excited to combine our strengths and map together.

Hallo iedereen

Bedankt om deze bijkomende opmerkingen met ons te delen.

We begrijpen jullie bezorgdheden omtrent edits door bedrijven. We erkennen dat jullie bepaalde standaarden en richtlijnen volgen en willen die ook respecteren. Net als jullie zijn we kaartenmakers, en in die hoedanigheid willen we samen met jullie de kaart nog beter maken. We hadden al succesvolle samenwerkingen met andere communities, bijvoorbeeld de Poolse, zoals RicoElectrico vermeldde.

We zouden het graag met jullie hebben over de projecten die we voorstelden:

• de challenge voor niet-gesloten polygons,
• het fixen van de charging station tags, waarvoor we nu ook een challenge aangemaakt hebben in Nederland (zie deze MapRoulette-link).

We kunnen jullie ook helpen gebruikmaken van MapMetrics ter ondersteuning van jullie eigen projecten. Het is de eerste release naar OSM van Steve Coasts Innovation-team binnen TomTom, en we zijn enthousiast over het potentieel van deze tool.

Als jullie andere ideeën hebben, horen we dat graag. We zouden het fijn vinden om onze krachten te bundelen en samen aan de kaart te werken.

Marjan

Sadly, there is no response on the mail.

Mapmetrics Nederland

Knowing places that are correct drawn in with the newest data, mostly of the Government, like BGT omtrekgericht, every street is checked, access tagged according to the traffic_sign, and still finding yellow, orange and red tiles on the map.
Okay, some development, new house blocks, one temporally closed street.

There are much much false positive.
Looking at a colored tile, how to find, what’s wrong.
Looking for “the needle in the haystack”, because someone tells, there could be a needle.
A colored tile is often a whole neighbourhood. Lot of cut roads to check.
Straight roads, like the road on the Markerwaarddijk between Enkhuizen and Lelystad,
mostly red, orange, yellow tiles, must everyone look there, the next one looks again, what is wrong?

Because of this.
The use of this tool is time consuming. If you want to find a spot to edit.
And does not give the effect it should give.

Download, not usable data, data set to big for local OSM use. 1.9 GB
Inside .csv is no extra hints, where to look.
All these data sets, we only need the latest.

In the base, it is a good idea, but it is to vague, to find in seconds, what the problem is.

A lot of Mapmetrics false positives can be found along railroads, and also along shipping/ferry routes.
These really need to be addressed first before this starts to become useful.

As for the Maproulette challenges: I’m not interested myself, but that’s because I tend(ed) to map things I encounter myself, and I mostly do mapping for the Humanitarian OpenStreetMap Team. The Tasking Manager they’ve set up (tasks.hotosm.org) could be a good approach to handling the Mapmetrics squares.

MarjanVan, could I in return for my feedback get a response to my previous post with remarks and a question: https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?pid=844385#p844385 ? Much appreciated, thanks.

I drew the same conclusion after inspection of mapmetrics