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#1 2021-09-15 11:17:20

dktue
Member
Registered: 2018-06-28
Posts: 270

Milestones are public domain but not in OpenStreetMap

Hello dutch openstreetmap community,

I found that the milestones of the motorways in the netherlands are available to the public domain (licence: CC-0) [1] but are not mapped in OpenStreetMap. To encourage mapping, I made a small gamified version of a hectometerborden-Map for the netherlands [2] (takes a while to load the data, be patient).

My question is: As there are currently almost no milestones mapped in the Netherlands: Would an import be easier or are there any objections to such an import?

Greetings from Germany
dktue

[1] https://data.overheid.nl/dataset/12777- … s--punten-
[2] http://hectometerborden.nl

----
This is a cross posting that I also put on the mailing list but as it's not very frequented I decided to post is here aswell

Last edited by dktue (2021-09-15 11:24:55)

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#2 2021-09-15 11:22:23

marczoutendijk
Member
From: Vught
Registered: 2012-03-04
Posts: 2,330
Website

Re: Milestones are public domain but not in OpenStreetMap

There was a small typo (missing final dash) in that URL, this is correct:

https://data.overheid.nl/dataset/12777- … s--punten-

Last edited by marczoutendijk (2021-09-15 11:23:25)


--
There is only one place where you can connect a high voltage line to a river: on osm! (but not in JOSM cool )

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#3 2021-09-15 11:25:08

dktue
Member
Registered: 2018-06-28
Posts: 270

Re: Milestones are public domain but not in OpenStreetMap

Thanks, I corrected it in the original posting.

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#4 2021-09-15 12:24:14

Hendrikklaas
Member
Registered: 2012-08-15
Posts: 1,330

Re: Milestones are public domain but not in OpenStreetMap

Moin dktue, I would not advice you to make an import of it, even if its available. There is to much difference between the theoretical list and the practical use of the markers outside. They tend to walk if damaged and one could be 20 m out of line.
The time they were used to mark a spot or way are behind us since GPS has been available, it is just a marker so that some one who wants to point were an emergency is, it is good enough to say N206 6.3 or Rijksweg A4 32.9 Li. The emergency services than have enough information to reach you and then it is not important if it is 20 m to the start or the end of the road.

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#5 2021-09-15 12:28:15

dktue
Member
Registered: 2018-06-28
Posts: 270

Re: Milestones are public domain but not in OpenStreetMap

That's exactly the use case: More and more emergency services start using OpenStreetMap and that's where of course it's an advantage to have it all in one dataset, namely OpenStreetMap.

So why not import it?

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#6 2021-09-15 13:13:23

Hendrikklaas
Member
Registered: 2012-08-15
Posts: 1,330

Re: Milestones are public domain but not in OpenStreetMap

As stated before, the import is not good enough, go out and survey, just to get more quality into OSM. Everybody could import it onto a map. But survey takes more worktime, with reliable results.
So don’t import it.

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#7 2021-09-15 15:52:47

emvee
Member
From: Rotterdam, The Netherlands
Registered: 2010-07-27
Posts: 144

Re: Milestones are public domain but not in OpenStreetMap

There are currently 162 highway=milestone tags in the Netherlands: https://taginfo.geofabrik.de/europe/net … estone#map, I do not see this being completed by hand.

I am not sure how reliable the data of Rijkwswaterstaat is, would be good to do a limited test, but if the data is good, I see no problems with an import an sich.

Just like the AND data, 3dShapes, BAGimport, etc. I think it can improve the usefulness of the data.

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#8 2021-09-15 16:07:57

Peter Elderson
Member
From: Nieuwerkerk aan de IJssel
Registered: 2018-02-08
Posts: 2,050

Re: Milestones are public domain but not in OpenStreetMap

Once imported, what happens then? Hands-up for cleaning up and maintenance of hectometershield data on all roads.

This is doomed to fail unless the people who use it perform the maintenance of this dataset in OSM. If it's aimed at emergency handling, the emergency people or providers of emergency applications would have to maintain the dataset.

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#9 2021-09-15 17:08:24

Martin Borsje
Moderator
From: Puth
Registered: 2011-10-22
Posts: 2,810

Re: Milestones are public domain but not in OpenStreetMap

When we have to glue the milestones to the road…that will be a heck of a job.

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#10 Yesterday 08:26:44

Peter Elderson
Member
From: Nieuwerkerk aan de IJssel
Registered: 2018-02-08
Posts: 2,050

Re: Milestones are public domain but not in OpenStreetMap

dktue wrote:

That's exactly the use case: More and more emergency services start using OpenStreetMap and that's where of course it's an advantage to have it all in one dataset, namely OpenStreetMap.

So why not import it?

Send location to the emergency control room. Consent to locate mobile phone. => geolocation.
Use OSM as background and for navigation / routing instructions to the pinpointed geolocation.

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#11 Yesterday 09:12:06

Martin Borsje
Moderator
From: Puth
Registered: 2011-10-22
Posts: 2,810

Re: Milestones are public domain but not in OpenStreetMap

dktue wrote:

That's exactly the use case: More and more emergency services start using OpenStreetMap and that's where of course it's an advantage to have it all in one dataset, namely OpenStreetMap.

So why not import it?

I have a principle objection against having safety critical information in OSM itself; information that everybody, willfully or unintentionally can change or damage. These services can use OSM as background and have their own layer, on their own server, over it.

This apart from my personal preference that I do not appreciate too see all hydrants, lampposts, milestones (kilometermarkers by the way here), electrical cabinets, emergency accesses in OSM.

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#12 Yesterday 15:54:24

A67-A67
Member
Registered: 2014-04-08
Posts: 722

Re: Milestones are public domain but not in OpenStreetMap

I have a few questions about a possible import of these hectometer signs / 'milestones':
- How accurate is the location of the signs? I think the best location to put these in OSM is at the exact location of the sign, next to the road. Would this import lead to a lot of signs spread over the roadway or would they be exactly on the location of the sign (e.g. accuracy of 25 cm).
- How would you translate the information on the signs to OSM tags? They usually contain a distance in km with 1 decimal accuracy, a road number and a carriageway reference (Li, Re, or a letter).

The traffic sign code of a hectometer sign is BB07, so I think the tag traffic_sign=NL:BB07 should be added to the hectometer signs.

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#13 Yesterday 19:37:26

Ninjoh
Member
Registered: 2018-09-20
Posts: 170

Re: Milestones are public domain but not in OpenStreetMap

I would like to add to the people saying; survey it.
It's practically impossible in my view to survey these signs with any degree of accuracy. The problem is that you can't get close to them, and if you try anyway you'll have Rijkswaterstaat stopping on the shoulder in no time asking what on earth you are doing!
Maybe with the new 7,5 cm aerial imagery combined with very high quality rapid automatically taken photographs from a car you could do it, but it would be a massive job.
So I think, either import them or don't add them at all.

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#14 Yesterday 21:15:20

smootheFiets
Member
Registered: 2019-12-09
Posts: 433

Re: Milestones are public domain but not in OpenStreetMap

How's this handled in other countries? Dktue, do you have any insight there? From Germany and/or elsewhere?

Hectometer signs is not something I'll survey, neither am I missing them. But I can imagine use cases, so I wouldn't mind a well-executed import.

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#15 Today 06:15:11

Sandal man
Member
From: Benissa
Registered: 2016-09-23
Posts: 247

Re: Milestones are public domain but not in OpenStreetMap

Just wondering, is there a layer that shows the milestones?


Passionate hiker on the Costa Blanca, Spain.

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#16 Today 06:33:34

Martin Borsje
Moderator
From: Puth
Registered: 2011-10-22
Posts: 2,810

Re: Milestones are public domain but not in OpenStreetMap

Can anybody explain why we even would like to have these markers at an accuracy of 25 cm, when even possible? Emergency services do not need that at all.

Do not only ask yourself the question what is possible, but think about the added value. Hectometermarkers is imho too farfetched.

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#17 Today 07:20:12

Peter Elderson
Member
From: Nieuwerkerk aan de IJssel
Registered: 2018-02-08
Posts: 2,050

Re: Milestones are public domain but not in OpenStreetMap

We have talks with the emergency people of different safety regions (Veiligheidsregio's) about using OSM for emergency handling. We have asked them what is important. None of them have mentioned milestones.

The Roadside Assistance (Wegenwacht, "triple A", Pannenhilfe) might have use for it, but if that is the case, they should at the same time build it into their applications and organize the maintenance and quality assurance of the data. My guess is they already use an application of their own, showing a layer with "official" data on top of a background map which might even be OSM. Probably only whole kilometers, not hectometers.
Callers don't need them because they are on the road and can see them live.

I think this use case is very weak. That said, there are a lot of those in OSM: no use case, but it's a visible thing, so it can be mapped. If anyone thinks it's important*  and makes work of it, fine, map it, import it with the usual doc / prep / check, maintain it. Provided that the geolocation data is accurate enough, so we don't get milestones all over the roadway. If that happens (not incidental but structural), I say revert and clean up the data before retry.

* I micromap underground waste containers. No use case at all, I just do it. My quirk.

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#18 Today 08:07:15

Geim
Member
From: MM
Registered: 2017-03-29
Posts: 683

Re: Milestones are public domain but not in OpenStreetMap

I've been accused that removing a non-used road (i.e. tags connected by a line) would cause too much server load: https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtop … 41#p834541
Please never use this excuse again, if someone decides that importing milestones would be a great idea.

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#19 Today 09:54:23

dktue
Member
Registered: 2018-06-28
Posts: 270

Re: Milestones are public domain but not in OpenStreetMap

smootheFiets wrote:

How's this handled in other countries? Dktue, do you have any insight there? From Germany and/or elsewhere?

Hectometer signs is not something I'll survey, neither am I missing them. But I can imagine use cases, so I wouldn't mind a well-executed import.

In the german Bundesland Thüringen mappers did the effort and mapped all milestones with Mapillary (Overpass for all Milestones in Thüringen, Example for one milestone).

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#20 Today 10:16:11

Hendrikklaas
Member
Registered: 2012-08-15
Posts: 1,330

Re: Milestones are public domain but not in OpenStreetMap

Hi dktue, I don’t get it, it looks like the Dutch community has any appetite to take the task you’re carrying and advertising.
Even adding the use of Mapillary is not a well thought option since there are less and less users over here, even the hardest fans of the system are leaving it behind. Since the buy out of idealism has brought another captain to serve Mapillary.

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#21 Today 13:00:52

Peter Elderson
Member
From: Nieuwerkerk aan de IJssel
Registered: 2018-02-08
Posts: 2,050

Re: Milestones are public domain but not in OpenStreetMap

Let's say, while there are no principle objections, there is no enthousiasm either.

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#22 Today 19:01:00

Commodoortje
Member
Registered: 2013-10-31
Posts: 2,616

Re: Milestones are public domain but not in OpenStreetMap

https://www.pdok.nl/geo-services/-/arti … 72fdcb2e3b

Bedoel je deze wms?

https://geodata.nationaalgeoregister.nl/nwbwegen/wms?request=GetCapabilities

2021-09-17_19-58-01.jpg?raw=1

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#23 Today 19:20:07

Jan Olieslagers
Member
From: B-3150
Registered: 2019-09-15
Posts: 230

Re: Milestones are public domain but not in OpenStreetMap

Voor wat het waard is: deze materie was ook in Vlaanderen aan de orde. Op de BE-mailing list las ik volgende, blijkbaar afkomstig van de bevoegde Vlaamse overheid "Agentschap Wegen en Verkeer":

We spreken niet meer over hm of km punten aangezien we zijn afgestapt om deze verplicht om de 100m te plaatsen wegens onhoudbaar.

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#24 Today 20:28:37

JeroenvanderGun
Member
Registered: 2020-10-23
Posts: 61

Re: Milestones are public domain but not in OpenStreetMap

I am enthusiastic. The coordinate information from the milestone signs has a variety of applications (also non-safety-critical). For ordinary road users, the most popular use-case is locating mobile speed limit enforcement. More generally, this information is a useful anchor for data fusion with other data sources, and locating incident reports on the map. Within OSM, it also allows internal verification of ref and carriageway_ref tags on ways.

I would prefer to avoid gluing the milestones to the ways, and instead put the milestone nodes at the actual location of the milestone. This practice is also accepted for traffic signs, and is less annoying if you simply want to edit the ways without editing milestones.

I think it would be most convenient if there is some sort of BAG-like synchronisation process, so that after the initial import, we can re-import a particular road segment upon request, e.g. after major infrastructure changes.

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#25 Today 21:51:48

goedegazelle
Member
From: Nederland
Registered: 2017-07-19
Posts: 683

Re: Milestones are public domain but not in OpenStreetMap

Jan Olieslagers wrote:

We spreken niet meer over hm of km punten aangezien we zijn afgestapt om deze verplicht om de 100m te plaatsen wegens onhoudbaar.

(Short: we don't use that anymore for practical reasons.)
We can regret such developments but telephone boxes have also disappeared because no one uses them anymore (well, they were disabled).

MOD EDIT: politiek geladen opmerkingen verwijderd

Last edited by AndriesWijma (Today 22:42:44)

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