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#1 2021-03-07 18:39:24

mariotomo
Member
Registered: 2018-12-16
Posts: 10

Andy Townsend acaba de enviarme un bloqueo

Hello Mario,

I’m sending this as a message that you have to read before continuing to edit. All of the sentiments expressed here have been passed on by me (and others) privately to you to no avail, leaving us no alternative but to send this publicly.

You have commented on a huge number of changesets by new mappers, as can be seen at http://resultmaps.neis-one.org/osm-disc … &commented . As we have previously told you, we (the DWG) have had complaints about the way that you have interacted with new mappers - it seems as if you have apparently put a number off OSM for life.

When people start doing something new, they make mistakes - that’s perfectly normal. With OSM, they need to find the best way of doing something. If I look back at something that I mapped 12 years ago I’m sure that I’ll find problems that need correcting - in fact if I resurvey somewhere I’ll find things that I missed the first time in pretty much all cases. OSM is and always has been an iterative process, and it is perfectly normal that the mapping of things gets better over time.

We appreciate that you care about the quality of data in OSM, but as a community, OSM’s most valuable commodity is new mappers. Anything that we do that might put people off mapping is detrimental to OSM as a whole - especially in less well-mapped areas.

There have been a number of occasions in the past where we’ve had complaints about the way that you’ve interacted with other mappers, and we’ve said to you (privately) that you need to change that behaviour. An example of something that I’ve said previously is:

I would suggest spending more time listening and less time talking (or typing).  Ask yourself "if I say this to a person, how will it make them feel?".

The debacle over the two Telegram channels in Panama is another example. Your actions have caused most people to leave the one that you are active in and move elsewhere - the vast majority of posts in the one that you are active in are now by you.

Clearly this isn’t healthy so we’d ask you to step back from your self-appointed role as “OSM gatekeeper” in Panama. Try not to pounce on every new mapper as soon as they make their tentative first few edits.

Something that I often say to people who get into arguments around OSM is “why is it happening to you?” Most OSM mappers go through life with barely a single discussion. Like Mikel said at https://lists.openstreetmap.org/piperma … 07534.html (and I’ve said on numerous occasions) - it is something different that you are doing that is causing you to have these arguments. Some of the points that you are making may be valid, but some are clearly not. If you continue to pick an argument with everyone and everything, any valid points you make will be easily ignored.

Please read this message, and please take some time to digest what it is trying to say. Don’t immediately reply with a “rebuttal” - that is part of the problem. Take a few hours to think about it, and please moderate your behaviour accordingly. In particular ask yourself “is there anyone that I need to apologise to because of how I made them feel?”.

Best Regards,

Andy Townsend, from OSM’s Data Working Group

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#2 2021-03-07 18:46:49

mariotomo
Member
Registered: 2018-12-16
Posts: 10

Re: Andy Townsend acaba de enviarme un bloqueo

la cosa curiosa es que los últimos meses he estado intentando revisar, mejorar mi estilo de comentario, pero sin reducir su volumen.  nunca ha sido mi intención ofender a nadie, sólo intentar mejorar el estilo de mapeo en la zona, coordinarlo, alcanzar acuerdos, levantar debates. 

Andy, cuando me dices "it seems" y "apparently", podrías ser más específico?  me tomo el encargo de escribirle pidiendole disculpa, caso por caso, absolutamente!

espero escuchar opiniones, gracias.

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#3 2021-03-13 00:06:06

mariotomo
Member
Registered: 2018-12-16
Posts: 10

Re: Andy Townsend acaba de enviarme un bloqueo

Andy, would you do me a favour?  if within a week from opening this topic nobody shows any support, then would you please block me forever?  thank you.
I'm namely unable to comply with your request "to step back from your self-appointed role as “OSM gatekeeper” in Panama".  I care too much for quality, and as long as I keep contributing, I will keep noticing other contributions, and I will keep commenting, and I assure you I've done my best to moderate my tone, and since you do not see any difference, then my best is obviously not good enough.

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#4 2021-03-14 12:29:37

mboeringa
Member
Registered: 2014-06-29
Posts: 355

Re: Andy Townsend acaba de enviarme un bloqueo

mariotomo,

While it is hard, or better said nearly impossible, to judge someone from just a superficial review of comments on changesets, I personally think you have not been treated fair by the DWG in this particular case.

Looking through the comments in http://resultmaps.neis-one.org/osm-disc … &commented that Andy pointed out, my general gut feeling is that of a person who is very diligently and consciously reviewing other people's work. From reading these comments, I do not get the feeling you deliberately "spam" (my words, not DWG) the users with a junk load of irrelevant comments.

Rather, I see a lot of small, highly to the point, hints and remarks that (new) users should be thankful for in helping them to find their way in the OSM ecosystem and improving their contributions.

Numbers mean little to me... The fact that you are prolific, is utterly acceptable to me, as long as your work is dedicated to (improving) OSM, which it seems so. The DWG also does not seem to deny this.

To be honest, I personally think we need more people like you actively surveilling OSM data quality. It is highly puzzling to me why I continuously see major personalities in the OSM community talk about the need of "manual review" instead of "bot" like "automated checks and edits", as manual review being the "core" of OSM, and then see the DWG take action in a case like yours on the grounds of you being "off putting" to other users...

I also have some serious doubts about Andy's remark that "OSM’s most valuable commodity is new mappers". While I appreciate the desire to grow the community, it should not be at all cost. I have seen enough "once or twice" type (mobile phone) junk edits and users, to know a fair amount of new mappers neither add value to the OSM community and database, nor will stick around with OSM anyway, because they just had some single instant need for OSM (e.g. to map their holiday location as one node with no useful tags).

I can't judge about your behavior in the Telegram channel, because I haven't seen anything of it. However, again, being prolific by itself means little. And being prolific ultimately may also mean you becoming the top contributor on communication channels that have little interest of others anyway as potentially being to specialized or not well known or user friendly to attract many others users. Many other "communication channels" like GitHub repositories for the major tools of OSM, also tend to have a very one sided and prolific input by a few users and maintainers, simply because they are the ones directly involved.

Anyway, I would definitely recommend you to stick around! Take some of what DWG said to heart in your contacts with others, but don't let it spoil your interest in OSM, and dedicated work for OSM. Thanks for being a diligent contributor and guardian to OSM!

Marco

Last edited by mboeringa (2021-03-14 15:05:12)

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#5 2021-03-14 13:34:27

mboeringa
Member
Registered: 2014-06-29
Posts: 355

Re: Andy Townsend acaba de enviarme un bloqueo

By the way, as a side remark: I also think the DWG should refrain from judging user's behavior in communication channels that are not under the direct authority of the OSMF. Telegram is not an OSMF serviced communication channel...

Any inappropriate behavior or comments in such third party communication channels should only be under the scrutiny of the relevant authority or company providing the service. I am not saying the DWG could not review it, just that it ultimately shouldn't be used in the judgment and actions against an OSM contributor.

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#6 2021-03-14 18:39:35

SeraliaM
New Member
Registered: 2021-03-14
Posts: 1

Re: Andy Townsend acaba de enviarme un bloqueo

Buenos días Andy.
Continuando con la situación que se presenta en Panamá, te hablo como panameña y por mi experiencia en Panamá cuando una persona realiza un comentario o hace una retroalimentación al trabajo que estas haciendo por lo general las personas se asustan y se toman la retroalimentación como un ataque y no como una ayuda para mejorar la practica, independientemente de la forma como lo expreses, que te puedo decir he seguido la situación y los nuevos usuarios que dices han dejado OSM debido a los comentarios a los conjuntos de cambio que Mario ha hecho, no me parece que lo culpen por cada persona que solo entra mapea una sola vez en alguna actividad organizada para un solo día y que luego de culminada esta actividad la persona desaparezca, en este caso deben preguntarse qué esta haciendo este grupo de personas que solo aparecen masivamente por un día y luego dejan una serie de errores por corregir, no creo que la intención de Mario sea ofender, simplemente el quiere ayudar a que estas personas que están ingresando por primera vez en OSM mejoren su practica, por lo que veo ahora no importa en que forma haga un comentario, simple y sencillamente le piden que no comente nada en Panamá.
En cuanto a la creación del otro grupo telegram, las personas que salieron del grupo y no fue la mayoría como mencionas solo fueron dos o tres personas, tomaron la decisión debido a que el resto del grupo no aceptamos un código de ética que ellos estaban sugiriendo, no me parece que se deba condicionar el pertenecer a un grupo debido a que no acepto un código de ética que prácticamente querían imponer, que Mario sea el que siempre este haciendo comentarios en el grupo es claro porque se mantiene mas activo y siempre nos esta tratando de motivar a mejorar y seguir contribuyendo con el mapeo en Panamá.

Seralia Martínez

Last edited by SeraliaM (2021-03-14 20:49:40)

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#7 2021-03-14 20:55:29

Rovastar
Member
Registered: 2007-09-12
Posts: 13

Re: Andy Townsend acaba de enviarme un bloqueo

There is also more comments in the diary entry here.

https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/mari … 9#comments

It seems everyone agrees so far.

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#8 2021-03-18 01:48:35

muralito
Member
Registered: 2012-09-04
Posts: 1,888

Re: Andy Townsend acaba de enviarme un bloqueo

Hola Mario.

Gracias por compartir tu problema, y espero poder ayudarte.

Desde mi total desconocimiento de la situaciòn, y solo basandome en el comentario que te hizo la DWG, tiene toda la apariencia de que sos un mapedaor puro y duro, "hardcore OSMer", y probablemente la calidad de los datos en la zona de tu interes serìa peor si no hicieras lo que haces, y creo que para el proyecto serìa muy bueno que pudieras seguir hacièndolo.

Tenemos diferencias culturales enormes entre muchos colaboradores, por lo que a veces es muy dificil entenderse, aunque usemos el mismo idioma, y si usamos idiomas distintos ni te cuento. A mi las cosas que asumen algunos mapeadores lejanos me tienen cansado, asumen como que las reglas y la realidad de su ciudad o de su pais se repitieran invariablemente en todo el planeta.

Si hay colaboradores que se han quejado, estudia las quejas, de que y por que presentaron esas quejas por tu comportamiento, pueden tener razòn, pueden haberte malinterpretado, o pueden ser hipersensibles.

El planteo que te hacen no es tècnico, sino social, por lo que te sugeriria desarrollar las habilidades blandas (soft skills), ya sea con un curso, con ejemplos, o de la forma que puedas. A veces conviene "hacerse el boludo" (no se si se dice asi en Panama) y otras veces ser duro. A veces conviene ser frontal y directo, otras veces buscar comunicaciones indirectas, y otras veces ni siquiera intentar comunicarse. No lo hagas por OSM, hacelo por vos, para mejorar tu vida.

Tomate un tiempo, unas vacaciones de OSM, y despues ves que queres hacer.

Poir otra parte, OSM (sus componentes, los datos, el proyecto, la fundacion) no es algo perfecto, y ultimamente tengo dudas de a que Norte apuntan.

y por favor dejen de usar soluciones y canales propietarios como Telegram para comunicacion en proyectos abiertos....

Saludos,
M.

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#9 2021-03-18 02:12:38

muralito
Member
Registered: 2012-09-04
Posts: 1,888

Re: Andy Townsend acaba de enviarme un bloqueo

mboeringa wrote:

By the way, as a side remark: I also think the DWG should refrain from judging user's behavior in communication channels that are not under the direct authority of the OSMF. Telegram is not an OSMF serviced communication channel...

Any inappropriate behavior or comments in such third party communication channels should only be under the scrutiny of the relevant authority or company providing the service. I am not saying the DWG could not review it, just that it ultimately shouldn't be used in the judgment and actions against an OSM contributor.

+1

Maybe the OSMF could run a matrix protocol server, and we could use it as an official channel, official rooms, etc.

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#10 2021-03-31 20:03:06

mariotomo
Member
Registered: 2018-12-16
Posts: 10

Re: Andy Townsend acaba de enviarme un bloqueo

today I managed to convince Seralia Martínez to invite Andy Townsend to let us understand.  I had to insist, like during a week, because she had decided it would be useless.

in her words:

»Hola Andy aprovecho que estás en el grupo para escribirte públicamente. Hace poco en el canal oficial foro 61 abrimos una discusión para que nos explicarás con más detalle el bloqueo realizado a Mario, bueno no hemos recibido una respuesta del DWG, mientras que otros han aportado opiniones.«

to which we got this answer:

»To be honest, I don't think there's a lot for me to say that hasn't already been said1000 times over« (Andy Townsend).

so first of all I have to accept that Seralia was right, it was useless asking.

in my opinion, this is not a honest answer. I might have received hints on complaints, and even if they never were to the point, I have tried to adapt the way I contribute to OSM.  I have never received any acknowledgement of my efforts by the DWG, nothing, none, never.  just this offensive action to block me temporarily, because I did not get the point that was being made, 1000 times over.

what was the point that was made, you also have heard 1000 times over?  I have apparently, but I never understood it.

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