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#1 2020-10-01 08:02:27

Russ McD
Member
From: Hereford & Chiang Mai.
Registered: 2011-04-17
Posts: 289

Village huts mapped the size of football pitches

Stumbled across another area in Thailand where in the spirit of stopping Malaria, users have drawn buildings way oversize, and given them names which I suspect are more related to the Malaria project than the actual building name (H2, M16, 51, etc).
Not only that, we have a few roads and tracks sprinkled in, that don't connect to anywhere.... OK, not a crime, but when you can't be arsed to trace the road further, cite a source, or even attempt to give it a surface tag ... yup, sloppy mapping.
My understanding is that OSM is not to be used for projects that carry references to individual work ?  How does the rest of the community view this?
Anyway, have left a changeset comment, and will change some buildings to areas, just to make a point - lets see if anyone shouts.
The area in Thailand is here :
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/12.4016/102.7102 
No point in contacting the contributor, or asking for a block .... they got bored and gave up mapping years ago, after they got a warm and rosy feeling from playing their part in saving the world smile
Russ.

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#2 2020-10-01 08:56:59

AlaskaDave
Member
From: Homer, Alaska ; Chiang Mai
Registered: 2013-09-21
Posts: 420
Website

Re: Village huts mapped the size of football pitches

Absolute garbage. Sloppy, careless and add any other negative adjective you choose.

The names on the houses are apparently the names of the owners (but who could know that for sure?) and that would be useful if it were tagged properly.

Horrible!

<edit added below>

Also, did you notice the areas tagged as area=yes with a numerical description nearby. They were originally tagged as landuse=residential by the same idiot who did the houses, user:jarinya manolaeven, though they are primarily farmland or wooded areas. Then some of his buddies, ChoosakN and Elijah Filip came along and "fixed" them by removing the landuse tag and replacing it with area=yes, completely forgetting to tell us what the area actually is.

This is the future of OSM, open to any fool who can work a mouse and use a computer.

Last edited by AlaskaDave (2020-10-02 00:51:35)

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#3 2020-10-01 15:07:40

AlaskaDave
Member
From: Homer, Alaska ; Chiang Mai
Registered: 2013-09-21
Posts: 420
Website

Re: Village huts mapped the size of football pitches

One more comment: some of those named buildings were supposedly removed or reverted by user:woodpeck_repair but they are still present. Apparently, the revert wasn't completely successful.

I resisted the impulse to delete everything in that area so that others could see what we're up against. The reservoir is horrible too. It might have been drawn with poorer imagery than we have now but in any case it's a wretched job of tracing.

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#4 2020-10-01 17:25:32

Bernhard Hiller
Member
Registered: 2011-05-10
Posts: 1,007

Re: Village huts mapped the size of football pitches

AlaskaDave wrote:

The names on the houses are apparently the names of the owners

Yes, "นาย ..." means "Mister ...". Found that in Indonesia, too: "rumah Pak Ahmad" - "House of Mister Ahmad"

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#5 2020-10-03 00:13:52

AlaskaDave
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From: Homer, Alaska ; Chiang Mai
Registered: 2013-09-21
Posts: 420
Website

Re: Village huts mapped the size of football pitches

I made a lengthy and somewhat heated changeset comment to one of the mappers responsible for the large areas with the numerical tags I mentioned above. User:Elijah Filip responded today:

Apologies AlaskaDave - these changesets refer to malaria foci used by the Bureau of Vector Borne Diseases in Thailand in their malaria elimination program. The description tag is a 10-digit code for identifying sub-national boundaries in Thailand's administrative hierarchy. The source tags were a unique identifier for the training in which these foci boundaries were enumerated so we could extract them more easily with the Overpass API.

The program has since moved away from using these areas given the lack of consultation with the community before deciding to use the public OSM instance. Instead we've set up a private instance to avoid polluting the public one. We have not gone back and removed these areas, but would be happy to remove the ~400 or so foci we mapped in Tak, Trat, and Ubon if you think it would be in the best interest of the community.

I'm going to respond but I wanted to present this information here for advice about how to respond. If these sub-national boundaries correspond to sub-districts or some other officially defined boundary then my suggestion would be to tag them with the actual names of the areas. However, I think the best solution would be to have him simply remove them. He calls them pollution and IMO that's what they are if left in their present state.

Opinions, suggestions?

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#6 2020-10-03 03:09:19

Paul_012
Member
Registered: 2011-08-05
Posts: 202

Re: Village huts mapped the size of football pitches

AlaskaDave wrote:

I made a lengthy and somewhat heated changeset comment to one of the mappers responsible for the large areas with the numerical tags I mentioned above. User:Elijah Filip responded today:

Apologies AlaskaDave - these changesets refer to malaria foci used by the Bureau of Vector Borne Diseases in Thailand in their malaria elimination program. The description tag is a 10-digit code for identifying sub-national boundaries in Thailand's administrative hierarchy. The source tags were a unique identifier for the training in which these foci boundaries were enumerated so we could extract them more easily with the Overpass API.

The program has since moved away from using these areas given the lack of consultation with the community before deciding to use the public OSM instance. Instead we've set up a private instance to avoid polluting the public one. We have not gone back and removed these areas, but would be happy to remove the ~400 or so foci we mapped in Tak, Trat, and Ubon if you think it would be in the best interest of the community.

I'm going to respond but I wanted to present this information here for advice about how to respond. If these sub-national boundaries correspond to sub-districts or some other officially defined boundary then my suggestion would be to tag them with the actual names of the areas. However, I think the best solution would be to have him simply remove them. He calls them pollution and IMO that's what they are if left in their present state.

Opinions, suggestions?

Appears to be this changeset?

The areas are clearly muban (meaning village, not housing estate), and should probably be represented by place=hamlet. These are usually mapped as nodes, but I don't think there's harm in converting these already-mapped areas if there's no redundancy. I'm guessing the boundaries were manually traced, and might not accurately reflect official lines, but then I've never heard of official boundaries for muban. Are they drawn at all?

The numbers in the description field appear to be geocodes similar to the system used by the Department of Provincial Administration. I'm not sure why they have ten digits, since villages (muban) are supposed to have eight, according to this blog post by Ahoerstemeier (MaewNam on OSM and here in the forums). They should be a clear fit for some designation of the ref key.

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#7 2020-10-03 05:34:00

AlaskaDave
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From: Homer, Alaska ; Chiang Mai
Registered: 2013-09-21
Posts: 420
Website

Re: Village huts mapped the size of football pitches

@Paul_12

Yes, that's the correct changeset but the tagged areas I'm talking about aren't easily visible from it. I should have provided more info earlier.

Here are the OSM ids for three of them I located near the big reservoir. Way: ทุ่งไก้แจ้ (691844251), Way: คลองปูนริมน้ำ (691602849), and Way: ท่ีทำกินทับทิม01 (691849823). The last one is tagged landuse=residential rather than area=yes but it's so inaccurate it's totally worthless as drawn.

(Aside: I did some work on the reservoir outline. I haven't added the islands yet but it looks a lot better than it did before.)

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#8 2020-10-03 09:12:06

stephankn
Moderator
Registered: 2010-05-04
Posts: 568

Re: Village huts mapped the size of football pitches

I have seen other places where arey=yes polygons are used to store internal identifiers in the OSM database. Recent example open in my editor is way 680693588.

I contacted editors multiple times, changeset comments or direct messages. I never received any reply. Not the best background experience to approach new users making the same mistakes again in these campaigns.

In case you have not yet noticed: iD stores additional details in the changeset. For example how many edits a user did so far and whether a review of the changeset was requested. Obviously in all these directed editing campaings no quality control happens, not even changesets with explicit wish for review are checked by the organizers.
It also shows how many warnings about wrong tags or overlapping ways they willingly ignored when submitting.

Given that these commercial "do good" entities like HOT try to optimize their profit it is understandable to offload these tasks to the local community and focus on more fundraising campaigns to bring in more new mappers.

To follow the process: It is absolutely crucial that you leave changeset comments in the relevant edits. This proves that we tried to resolve it. Otherwise DWG can't help.

The vast majority of directed edits in Thailand are violating the Organised Editing Guideline and could last-resort be reverted:
https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/w/images … elines.pdf

A while ago I also mentioned this very prominent in the Thailand wiki page.

I would like to keep the local people involved in some of these campaigns and help them mapping properly. We need on-the-ground people.

Your message reminds me that I wanted to compile a case for DWG. I found areas where they publicly tagged malaria cases. I think it is a very sensitive personal information whether you have malaria or not. In Europe, publishing such medial detail is probably in violation of the GDPR. End even if not, I strongly consider it inappropriate and it does not belong into OSM.

As these Organised Edits clearly outnumber us and we have not the capacity, can we agree on a policy on how to deal with it?
Shall we define a process on how to approach each editor and define criteria about when to revert the changes completely?

BTW: As some of the editors have discovered the functionality to create circles, we end up with more and more silos in Thailand. Especially funny, given that these buildings are a source for created buildings in other software like the recently release MS flight simulator.

bad-buildings4.jpg

In this area you can see lots of the weather shelters on the fields are mapped as buildings. While technically correct, in the context we seen them used they clearly aim at finding inhabited places. The map is covered with tiny "buildings" only a few square meters in size in the mittle of fields. For example this one roughly 3x3 meters: way 690768512

bad-buildings5.jpg
https://www.bing.com/maps?osid=187fb36a … orm=S00027

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#9 2020-10-04 00:01:03

AlaskaDave
Member
From: Homer, Alaska ; Chiang Mai
Registered: 2013-09-21
Posts: 420
Website

Re: Village huts mapped the size of football pitches

The whole episode leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I honestly don't know how we should deal with this sort of thing going forward.

I'm including the recent update to my changeset conversation with user:Elijah Filip here just to keep you all in that loop. Nobody commented on a solution to the areas mentioned above so I essentially told him to remove them. At least "Elija" had the courtesy to respond, unlike so many others working on similar projects.

Thanks for your reply. I asked for opinions about these "foci" on the Thailand OSM subforum but so far nobody has expressed their views. Read the thread here: https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=70754

My feeling is that if you could correlate your areas with officially recognized hamlets, towns or districts and add a real name, they could stay. In the absence of that knowledge, they should be removed. If you have the project codes at hand, perhaps you could search them and delete them easily. Thank you.

You will have to excuse the tone of our conversation in the above referenced thread and in my initial comment on this changeset. We have experienced so many similar edits, which you correctly refer to as pollution, in our database that our patience has worn thin.

Please read the thread for more information. Using OSM as you and your colleagues did isn't legitimate and it serves to enrage people who do this from a love of mapping and whose mapping standards are high. Seeing buildings drawn the way your team did them is incorrect, sloppy and in the end, infuriating.

Last edited by AlaskaDave (2020-10-04 00:05:57)

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#10 2020-10-04 05:15:47

Paul_012
Member
Registered: 2011-08-05
Posts: 202

Re: Village huts mapped the size of football pitches

I did suggest that they be retagged with place=hamlet though. While some of them are redundant with existing place nodes, many don't appear to have otherwise been mapped, and it would be beneficial to retain the information in some format. I don't see reason to believe that the village names aren't accurate?

I've reached out to MaewNam for comment on the geocodes. The ISO3166-2 key is already fairly extensively used, and if these are indeed an extension of the standard they could probably by extension be tagged with a similar key.

Last edited by Paul_012 (2020-10-04 05:48:24)

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#11 2020-10-04 06:08:23

AlaskaDave
Member
From: Homer, Alaska ; Chiang Mai
Registered: 2013-09-21
Posts: 420
Website

Re: Village huts mapped the size of football pitches

I have no problem with waiting a bit. I have already modified some of the landuse=residential areas (unnamed ones) because they were ridiculously oversized and encompassed so much farmland and woods that I just couldn't let them stand as is. I also "fixed" some of those huge "football pitch size" houses by adjusting them to the proper size and removing the names.

But I have plenty of other stuff to do while we're sorting this out. Standing by.....

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#12 2020-10-07 01:20:12

AlaskaDave
Member
From: Homer, Alaska ; Chiang Mai
Registered: 2013-09-21
Posts: 420
Website

Re: Village huts mapped the size of football pitches

Here is the latest changeset comment from user:Elijah Filip (emphasis added)

Thanks AlaskaDave and Paul_012 for your replies and the link to the forum where this is being discussed. No worries about the tone, completely understandable given that this seems to be a relatively widespread issue in OSM and the fact that this project clearly doesn't conform to OSM standards. Happy to try and rectify any damage done depending on what you all decide is best going forward.

I wanted to double check if it would be alright to share your comments and the link to the forum with the organization who made the decision to use the public instance. I believe they may be using OSM in other projects around the world and am unsure if they are consulting the community before doing so. We had previously shared with them how to set up a private instance so they could move away from the use of OSM directly, but I think it would be useful for them to be aware of the opinion of the community towards these types of enumeration.

As for the boundaries that were drawn in Thailand, they have 10 digit administrative codes because they are hand-drawn sub-villages mapped by the health centers (VBDUs) in the area. The boundaries are generally larger than the villages themselves as they were meant to encompass any potential areas of transmission (breeding sites, forests where transmission may be taking place, etc.). As far as I'm aware, there are no officially drawn boundaries for the muban/village or sub-village level in Thailand. Let me know if there is any other information I can provide about the ways that could help in deciding what the next steps are. Will keep an eye out for comments to this changeset going forward

Thanks are due to him for responding so clearly and helpfully. Based on his response, and especially the portion I emphasized, I think the tagged areas in this changeset and others should be removed. I would like a consensus on that before requesting that he do that.

I also think he should share this thread and the changeset comments with the sponsoring organization so we can reduce theses sorts of uses of OSM going forward.

If I don't hear any calls to keep these areas, I'll ask him to go ahead and remove them from the OSM database.

Dave


** EDIT **   My response is below:

Thanks so much for this helpful response. Please feel free to share our communications with the sponsors of your project. I can only hope it leads to a reduction of the use of the OSM database for this sort of project record keeping.

I added your response to the thread on the OSM Thailand Forum and asked for opinions regarding the removal of these transmission-site areas but I'm convinced they serve no useful purpose currently and should be removed.

Earlier in this comment, you mentioned ~400 areas added by this project. Do you have a list of identifiers for those other areas?

I'll let you know if I get any dissenting opinions, or you can subscribe to the thread yourself if you haven't already.

Thank you,
Dave

Last edited by AlaskaDave (2020-10-07 01:35:23)

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#13 2020-10-10 20:25:45

stephankn
Moderator
Registered: 2010-05-04
Posts: 568

Re: Village huts mapped the size of football pitches

Hello Dave, Paul,

please follow up on this topic. Again for reference, I see that discussion also happens on this changeset:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/77298058

If the names do correlate to places we could add, adding a place node at a reasonable location should preserve this detail.
I still do not fully understand where the data was coming from, whether it was an official source according to the code or hand-drawn from local offices.

It sounds that the name is actually referring to a place. So place=hamlet or place=village might match. Please check.

And as a side-note: The privacy violation I mentioned earlier is reported to DWG with reference Ticket#2020100410000051
I suggested a redaction to completely remove it, including from the full history planet dump.

Stephan

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#14 2020-10-11 01:04:35

AlaskaDave
Member
From: Homer, Alaska ; Chiang Mai
Registered: 2013-09-21
Posts: 420
Website

Re: Village huts mapped the size of football pitches

Eli Filip replied to my changeset comment the other day but I forgot to add his most recent message here. (I'm traveling at the moment). Sorry for the delay.

Hi Dave,

Thanks, I have shared this changeset and the thread.

We do have a list of the areas. The easiest way to pull them out is using Overpass to query on the source and description tags across all of Thailand:

area["name:en"="Thailand"] ->.a;
way["source"~"BVBDMAY2019|WHO2019"]["description"~"."](area.a);
(._;>;);
out geom;

Note that this misses a handful of ways that were incorrectly tagged, but this should be the vast majority of them. There were also a large number of buildings that were enumerated, but I believe there were large issues with consistent tagging during the enumeration so there isn't an easy way to pull them out that I know of. I believe the organization responsible for enumeration simply looped through the ways in the query above and extracted buildings in the way boundaries which included some buildings mapped by them and some buildings mapped by other community members.

Let me know if there is anything else I can help with.

Best,
Eli

Edit added 2020-10-13

So, what do we want to do about this? The areas I checked using the supplied Query don't seem very useful. They don't align well with existing OSM drawn residential areas (which are admittedly, very approximate) so my feeling is to simply remove all of them.

Last edited by AlaskaDave (2020-10-13 02:11:42)

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#15 2020-10-13 02:14:19

AlaskaDave
Member
From: Homer, Alaska ; Chiang Mai
Registered: 2013-09-21
Posts: 420
Website

Re: Village huts mapped the size of football pitches

I edited my comment above but decided to repeat it so that people who are subscribed will get a reminder.

So, what do we want to do about this? The areas I checked using the supplied Query don't seem very useful. They don't align well with existing OSM drawn residential areas (which are admittedly, very approximate) so my feeling is to simply remove all of them.

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#16 2020-10-13 09:03:34

stephankn
Moderator
Registered: 2010-05-04
Posts: 568

Re: Village huts mapped the size of football pitches

Hello Dave,

I thought about retaining the information from the name tags. The area itself looks very unofficial. This is nothing we could independently verify, so the area geometry is clearly a candidate for removal.

I also checked a few areas where inside the area is only a single settlement and that one has also a place node with a name.

Unfortunately only a fraction of these way areas had names which correlated with the existing place names. If not assuming that all place nodes in OSM are from some bad sources, I would rank their quality higher than the names on fictional area boundaries.

So in this case, the last potentially worthy bit of detail got also void.

Based on this I would vote for a complete delete.
If someone could verify that the name tags are actually valid and just a "Ban" is missing in the front we could fix that. But not certain it is worth the risk/effort.

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#17 2020-10-31 02:01:35

Paul_012
Member
Registered: 2011-08-05
Posts: 202

Re: Village huts mapped the size of football pitches

Stephankn, could you give some examples of how the names conflict? From what I've seen they didn't seem doubtful.

The areas appear to be manual traces of neighbourhoods rather than official boundaries, so retaining only the names if possible seems a fair suggestion.

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#18 2020-10-31 02:12:17

AlaskaDave
Member
From: Homer, Alaska ; Chiang Mai
Registered: 2013-09-21
Posts: 420
Website

Re: Village huts mapped the size of football pitches

The areas appear to be manual traces of neighbourhoods rather than official boundaries, so retaining only the names if possible seems a fair suggestion.

Paul, Elijah told me the areas are meant to include the settlement as well as any surrounding area that could be a breeding ground for malaria-carrying mosquitoes. I don't think they serve a useful purpose for normal users of OSM data.

I vote to delete them. I say forget about trying to salvage a tiny bit of useful information from them. It's too much work for a very small return.

Last edited by AlaskaDave (2020-10-31 02:14:29)

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#19 2020-10-31 09:29:33

stephankn
Moderator
Registered: 2010-05-04
Posts: 568

Re: Village huts mapped the size of football pitches

@Paul: sorry, I didn't copy the references to the not matching ones. Can't remember which area I checked. So maybe the accuracy of the names depends heavily on the region/mapper drawing it. I opened the filter above and thought I might come up quickly with bad examples, but this time only spotted names which had been duplicates (the areas typically lack "Ban").

Still the geometry is nothing I would keep, as it covers way more than the residential landuse of the villages. Maybe you could take-over the name as place name if something hints that it is correct. Neighboring villages with the correct name from same mapper might be a good indicator. Or Wat/School with the same name. Still a lot of cleanup work.

If you have the capacity to review some of the areas and copy over the useful details into a place tag, it would be highly appreciated. If you do 10-15 each day it is done in a month. The total number of potentially added place nodes is then in the area of 300. A spatial query could give more details. Maybe checking that out later.

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#20 2020-10-31 13:07:24

stephankn
Moderator
Registered: 2010-05-04
Posts: 568

Re: Village huts mapped the size of football pitches

Here a query which selects the areas in questions where there are already tagged places, Currently 71 polygons matched, some cover multiple place nodes (77 places).

In theory these areas are duplicates and could removed right away. They might serve as an indicator how well they match. So untagged place nodes could inherit the place names.

https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/Zzf

As I want to avoid missing to document findings like last time, here the double-nodes:
way 691673750 name=นุโพ, node 1440277185 name=แม่จัน, node 7099668518 name=Nu Po Refugee Camp
way 691890323 name=เปลิ่งเคลิ่ง, node 1444460643 name=บ้านเปิ่งเคลิ่ง, node 5040884680 name=บ้านเปิงเคลิ่ง
way 691863974 name=กลัอทอ, node 1858019059 name=แม่จัน, node 5040726390 name=บ้านกล้อทอ
way 691851486 name=อุ้มผาง, node 795764576 name=บ้านโชตา, node 795761644 name=อุ้มผาง
way 691849701 name=วังผา, node 5035884677 name=บ้านวังผา, node 795672667 name=บ้านไม้ริมเหม่ย
way 691844773 name=หนองหลวง, node 3997932144 name=บ้านหนองหลวง, node 2103966229 name=บ้านหนองหลวง

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