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#26 2014-02-04 17:15:31

Paul_012
Member
Registered: 2011-08-05
Posts: 202

Re: Use of highway=living_street?

westnordost wrote:

I propose to use these pictures (made in Nan) for reference.

Looks good to me.

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#27 2014-02-05 02:02:32

AlaskaDave
Member
From: Homer, Alaska ; Chiang Mai
Registered: 2013-09-21
Posts: 420
Website

Re: Use of highway=living_street?

Paul_012 wrote:
westnordost wrote:

I propose to use these pictures (made in Nan) for reference.

Looks good to me.

I'm sorry, but a paved soi will never be a "path" to me. I think the highway=service paired with service=alley makes some sense even though it is not correct semantically nor in accordance with accepted OSM practice, but to me a path is a very narrow, unpaved footway (or cycleway). If we're going to repurpose definitions to be specific to Thailand, because that is what we would be doing by using highway=path for the Nan example above, then why not create a new category of highway altogether?

If I were to ignore the low probability of obtaining OSM-wide approval I might propose trok (ตรอก), which is a small soi or alley, and describes the situation better. There are a few small sois in Phayao I've seen that use trok in their names.

It's plain that we need some sort of highway tagging that would work better than what we now have but this is a topic that will need more general approval than just the decision of those of us working in Thailand.

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#28 2014-02-05 17:21:17

westnordost
Member
From: Hamburg
Registered: 2013-07-13
Posts: 558

Re: Use of highway=living_street?

Of course, exactly the thing we are trying to do here is to NOT repurpose definitions specific to Thailand. Instead, fit the situation in Thailand into the current model that is valid for the whole world. The above definitions should help people mapping Thailand to get the tagging right on those types of tiny streets that one wouldn't find in the Western world very much.

So, could you elaborate how the above definitions are neither correct semantically nor confirm to accepted OSM practice? What should be changed on that proposal?

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#29 2014-02-05 23:52:17

stephankn
Moderator
Registered: 2010-05-04
Posts: 568

Re: Use of highway=living_street?

westnordost wrote:

path.jpg
Definition

This is a service=alley. Too narrow for a (bigger) car or truck, but motobike traffic is fine

Tagging width=* helps

westnordost wrote:

alley.jpg
Definition
A residential ซอย (Soi)

That's it. tag with width=* and lanes=* for rendering and routing to make it appear right on the map. Physical characteristics are explicitly tagged. Only if there is none we use a meaningful default based on road type.

westnordost wrote:

residential.jpg

This is another residential. Looks like two cars can pass each other. So maybe lanes=2 is alright. Definitely add a width=* to make clear it's a narrow residential.

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#30 2014-02-06 01:18:55

AlaskaDave
Member
From: Homer, Alaska ; Chiang Mai
Registered: 2013-09-21
Posts: 420
Website

Re: Use of highway=living_street?

westnordost wrote:

Of course, exactly the thing we are trying to do here is to NOT repurpose definitions specific to Thailand. Instead, fit the situation in Thailand into the current model that is valid for the whole world. The above definitions should help people mapping Thailand to get the tagging right on those types of tiny streets that one wouldn't find in the Western world very much.

So, could you elaborate how the above definitions are neither correct semantically nor confirm to accepted OSM practice? What should be changed on that proposal?

From my reading of the definition of highway=service, it is clearly not meant to be used for a residential street:

Wiki: For access roads to, or within an industrial estate, camp site, business park, car park etc.

How can a residential way fit this definition? Your photographic example comes pretty close to the definition seeing as it is a small lane bordered by walls but most small sois are not quite that closed up. The reason IMO that we've used that tag combination is so that the sub-tag of service=alley becomes available.

Wiki: An alley or alleyway is a narrow service road usually located between properties to provide access things such as back gardens, rear entrances, fire exits, and storage areas. Alleys are normally found in urban areas, and often run between the rear sides of buildings such as houses, and commercial premises.
In some medieval European settlements alleys may be the very narrow streets which run in-between buildings, providing public through-access.

These small lanes do fit my definition of an alley although, except possibly for that last sentence about medieval Europe, it does not strictly follow from the OSM definition either.

I wish there was another way to do this that did not involve the concept of service road with its implied access restrictions and other considerations. I think a new subtag "residential=alley" is appropriate and that's the direction I would prefer we take. Getting such a proposal through the vetting process is a big job however and I'm reluctant to start it.

Your thoughts?

Last edited by AlaskaDave (2014-02-06 01:27:11)

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#31 2020-10-23 11:43:12

stephankn
Moderator
Registered: 2010-05-04
Posts: 568

Re: Use of highway=living_street?

Sorry, I have to bring this old thread up again.

I recently saw that some tagging of residential roads as living_street is still happening.

I had the impression we clarified here and in a related thread (https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=62073), that the definition of highway=living_street is not applicable for Thailand and we decided to not use it.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag … ing_street
Road with very low speed limits and other pedestrian friendly traffic rules

So it is clear: There have to be restrictions by law for this to apply. To my knowledge, this is still not the case.

Gated communities might have access restrictions, but this is independent from the definition of a living street.

Wikipedia lists legal restrictions for living streets in various countries around the world, but Thailand is not included.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Living_street

Even if it exists in Thailand, for people to recognize a zone where specific laws apply it would require a specific road sign, which I am also not aware of in Thailand.

Can we officially agree to not use the highway=living_street in Thailand?

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#32 2020-10-23 11:49:14

Johnny Carlsen
Member
From: Chiang Mai, Thailand
Registered: 2011-02-19
Posts: 134

Re: Use of highway=living_street?

stephankn wrote:

Can we officially agree to not use the highway=living_street in Thailand?

As before, I still vote against using highway=living_street in Thailand.

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