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#26 2010-05-20 11:47:26

stephankn
Moderator
Registered: 2010-05-04
Posts: 606

Re: Name tags for brand names like "BigC", "TESCO Lotus" or "Shell"

Is there any interest in having a special rendered map?

I can provide map renderings for Thailand. Currently I have a setup for rendering "default name", "name:en" with fallback "name" and a rendering with a combined Thai-English label.

Stephan

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#27 2010-05-21 12:24:56

Willi2006
Member
From: Khon Kaen, Thailand
Registered: 2009-12-12
Posts: 421
Website

Re: Name tags for brand names like "BigC", "TESCO Lotus" or "Shell"

stephankn wrote:

I can provide map renderings for Thailand. Currently I have a setup for rendering "default name", "name:en" with fallback "name" and a rendering with a combined Thai-English label.

Thanks for the offer. Currently no demand from my side. I'm using the available rendered maps Mapnik and Osmarender on the internet to check my mapping only.

But I think at least the Mapnik map on the internet should be "combined" or better "bilingual" in the local language and in English. This would make the map more useable and would look more good. But currently there are different variations in different countries.

Last edited by Willi2006 (2010-05-21 12:26:35)

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#28 2010-05-21 13:19:30

stephankn
Moderator
Registered: 2010-05-04
Posts: 606

Re: Name tags for brand names like "BigC", "TESCO Lotus" or "Shell"

Is there an easy global system to have a combined map? "name (name:en)" does not sound wise for the UK or US. But mapnik requires a single rendering rule and does not differentiate between geographic regions.
This might be preprocessed but sounds too for the main map on openstreetmap.org with it's frequent updates.

I like more the approach of wikimedia to have renderings for the different target languages. This can take different fallback languages into account.

Stephan

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#29 2010-05-21 22:52:55

Willi2006
Member
From: Khon Kaen, Thailand
Registered: 2009-12-12
Posts: 421
Website

Re: Name tags for brand names like "BigC", "TESCO Lotus" or "Shell"

stephankn wrote:

Is there an easy global system to have a combined map? "name (name:en)" does not sound wise for the UK or US. But mapnik requires a single rendering rule and does not differentiate between geographic regions.

May be it does not sound good but it should work. As far as I have seen these countries are using "name" only. "name:en" isn't set.

Google maps are bilingual already, e.g. Moskau and Khon Kaen Airport.

Last edited by Willi2006 (2010-05-22 05:42:54)

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#30 2010-05-26 23:23:40

Willi2006
Member
From: Khon Kaen, Thailand
Registered: 2009-12-12
Posts: 421
Website

Re: Name tags for brand names like "BigC", "TESCO Lotus" or "Shell"

In OSM Wiki the "name" tag is not defined. Different countries use different approaches. This discussion shows that there are different opinions for Thailand. There's no conclusion yet.

In this situation one user changed the name tagging of another user despite contributiing to and knowing from this discussion that the tagging by the other was explained and on purpose. This can't be regarded as friendly act.

What's going on: ignorance, conceitedness, demotivation, starting an edit war?

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#31 2010-05-27 07:57:03

WanTan
Member
Registered: 2008-04-03
Posts: 44

Re: Name tags for brand names like "BigC", "TESCO Lotus" or "Shell"

Willi2006 wrote:
stephankn wrote:

Is there an easy global system to have a combined map? "name (name:en)" does not sound wise for the UK or US. But mapnik requires a single rendering rule and does not differentiate between geographic regions.

May be it does not sound good but it should work. As far as I have seen these countries are using "name" only. "name:en" isn't set.

Imho using "name" and "name:en" will not do it, as long as there is no clear decision to use the "local language" in the name-tag. And if this decision would be done, there would still be the problem to decide what is this "local language" for some regions.

Imho there are three (or maybe more) alternatives for bilingual maps:
1.) Tagging different in different locations. E.g. not adding name:en in the region of the USA or in regions where there "is no need for biligual writing" (e.g. Germany). This will be difficult to do in a wiki-based community like OSM. And there is e.g. the problem that in English its called "Munich" not "München". Making exceptions in cases like this seems not practicable.

2.) Using rendering rules to let the renderer decide what has to be written to the specific geografical point. Maybe the renderer could use "is_in"-tags for this or do some calculation. This would be very flexible and powerful. But there would be the same problem e.g. with cities like Munich.

3.) Add some new tags for this problem of creating a "default bilingual map". Something like "name:default_world" and "name:default_local". This seems to be the cleanest solution but also the solution with the biggest effort.

In Thailand we always add the same value for streets in "name" and "name:th". Why should we forbit the same for UK, USA, Canada, Australia, ...? This will simply not work imho.

And who wants to make the decision that "English is the language of the world"? Some people will say "No, its Esperanto" others will say "No, its Chinese".

Doesn't Google have something like a "community based map maker tool"? Maybe we should have a look at it how they handle this problem for their map.

Willi2006 wrote:

In this situation one user changed the name tagging of another user despite contributiing to and knowing from this discussion that the tagging by the other was explained and on purpose. This can't be regarded as friendly act.

What's going on: ignorance, conceitedness, demotivation, starting an edit war?

I am not sure what you want to tell us. Is there a concrete problem with other users changing the name-tags of your edits?

I do not consider this thread as "closed" or "useless". I am still thinking about the problem. But naming in general is a very big problem in OSM. The more i think about it, the bigger the problem gets :-)

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#32 2010-05-27 09:02:34

Willi2006
Member
From: Khon Kaen, Thailand
Registered: 2009-12-12
Posts: 421
Website

Re: Name tags for brand names like "BigC", "TESCO Lotus" or "Shell"

WanTan wrote:

But naming in general is a very big problem in OSM. The more i think about it, the bigger the problem gets :-)

I think we are not able to solve this problem for OSM and it shouldn't be discussed in the Thailand subforum either. Well, we are even not able to come to an agreement for Thailand.

And in this situation I can't regard it as helpful to change the tagging of others as long as it is not wrong and is according to OSM rules but because it is not according to the own preferences.

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#33 2010-05-27 10:03:26

WanTan
Member
Registered: 2008-04-03
Posts: 44

Re: Name tags for brand names like "BigC", "TESCO Lotus" or "Shell"

The topic of this thread is "Name tags for brand names like BigC, TESCO Lotus or Shell". And i would like to come back to the intended topic of this thread in the further discussion.

Willi2006 wrote:
WanTan wrote:

But naming in general is a very big problem in OSM. The more i think about it, the bigger the problem gets :-)

I think we are not able to solve this problem for OSM and it shouldn't be discussed in the Thailand subforum either. Well, we are even not able to come to an agreement for Thailand.

Why shouldn't we be able to come to an agreement some day in future? We just started discussing this topic :-)

Willi2006 wrote:

And in this situation I can't regard it as helpful to change the tagging of others as long as it is not wrong and is according to OSM rules but because it is not according to the own preferences.

Maybe you should send a private message to the user you want to tell this.

Last edited by WanTan (2010-05-27 10:05:17)

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#34 2010-09-26 12:07:27

amai
Member
Registered: 2008-02-29
Posts: 46

Re: Name tags for brand names like "BigC", "TESCO Lotus" or "Shell"

It took me some time to read all this thread, and unfortunately it doesn't end up with a nice short conclusion ;-(

So what can we do to resolve?
We should agree on some principles (e.g. "in first place get data in a reasonable shape, then later look at the software client side" which is AKA "don't tag for the renderer") and then just get some decision. Better get some scheme which has to be revised in 2015 than having no scheme at all.

Couldn't we write down the existing 2-3 proposals in short, and have a voting either here or in wiki? And try to get in some votes from native Thai speakers?

amai

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#35 2010-09-28 12:42:15

WanTan
Member
Registered: 2008-04-03
Posts: 44

Re: Name tags for brand names like "BigC", "TESCO Lotus" or "Shell"

amai wrote:

It took me some time to read all this thread, and unfortunately it doesn't end up with a nice short conclusion ;-(

Yes, some things get more difficult the more you think and discuss about it.

amai wrote:

So what can we do to resolve?
We should agree on some principles (e.g. "in first place get data in a reasonable shape, then later look at the software client side" which is AKA "don't tag for the renderer") and then just get some decision. Better get some scheme which has to be revised in 2015 than having no scheme at all.

Couldn't we write down the existing 2-3 proposals in short, and have a voting either here or in wiki? And try to get in some votes from native Thai speakers

Yes, it would be nice to come to an conclusion, at least for the most important things. Maybe you could help to push it a bit. What is your opinion after reading this thread?

I am still hoping for a solution like this eventually in future (see Post #5):
"The best solution for tagging brand names would be a centralized database for brand names, where the renderers could request the names by sending an ID for a brand and select from the available translations for this ID. Or there should be something like a "name reference". The current system is redundant."
But this would require big changes in the OSM database scheme.

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