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#1 2020-06-13 14:36:57

Paul_012
Member
Registered: 2011-08-05
Posts: 189

Tagging of healthcare facilities

I just came across another health station (สถานีอนามัย) tagged as amenity=hospital. Not remembering what the preferred tagging was, I rediscovered this thread where it was briefly discussed, but inconclusively. The relevant comments are:

FormFungi wrote:

... the small medical stations that can be found in some villages. I don't think it would be appropriate to label them as a hospital. Maybe a clinic node?

Paul_012 wrote:

Regarding health stations (สถานีอนามัย, now called tambon health promoting hospitals), quite a few of them have been mapped, mostly in Chiang Mai. They've mostly been tagged as hospitals, though I agree that they aren't really actual hospitals with patient-admission capacity and clinic might be a better tag. You might want to wait for others' opinions on the matter.

stephankn wrote:

Regarding the health stations: They are definitely a different category than full blown hospitals. But with the term clinic I associate a different kind of place.
Let me explain what I've been told about them.
Usually a clinic is a private-run healthcare place. You have to pay by yourself, government health care does not pay this. A doctor might run such a place in the evening, being daytime employed at a government run facility.

For the big hospitals I had been using emergency=yes if they offer emergency services. So there is always a doctor at duty and they have the equipment to deal also with more severe emergencies. I suggest to start a new thread to discuss the options we have to tag the various healthcare places.

This should probably be that thread. I'll list the types I can think of in descending order, beginning with the most obvious:

Hospitals (โรงพยาบาล), public or private, with inpatient beds. The smaller ones may be named สถานพยาบาล ("health centres"):

amenity=hospital
healthcare=hospital
emergency=yes or emergency=no
operator:type=public or operator:type=private
healthcare:speciality=* if applicable

(The amenity and healthcare tags are redundant, but both should still probably be used for legacy reasons.)

Doctor's clinics (คลินิกเวชกรรม) are a bit tricky. Most of the clinics in Thailand are run by just one or a handful of doctors, and are closer to what's known elsewhere as a doctor's practice/surgery/office. Despite the name usually used in Thailand, they should follow the standard tagging scheme. I'd suggest the following for the typical private clinic run by a single doctor:

amenity=doctors
healthcare=doctor
healthcare:speciality=* if applicable

For dental clinics (คลินิกทันตกรรม):

amenity=dentist
healthcare=dentist

These two are probably the most commonly encountered. There are also other legally defined types of clinics:

Nursing and midwifery: healthcare=nurse;midwife
Physiotherapy: healthcare=physiotherapist
Medical technician's: healthcare=laboratory
Traditional Thai medicine: healthcare=alternative healthcare:speciality=traditional_thai_medicine
Art of healing: This is an all-encompassing legal term for psychologists, therapists, etc. Use the applicable tag for the practice.

For larger establishments (the wiki suggests 10 or more staff as the cut-off point), use:

amenity=clinic
healthcare=clinic
healthcare:speciality=* if applicable

I'm not quite sure what a practical point of distinction would be for Thailand. The only example of a large outpatient-only clinic I can think of off the top of my head is the Medical Development Clinic (คลินิกศูนย์แพทย์พัฒนา) on Pradit Manutham Rd. in Bangkok. But there are probably more mid-size clinics that could be tagged as such.

Beauty clinics are also very common nowadays, with many chain brands found in shopping malls. I'm not quite familiar with their operations, though. Does anyone know if most of them are closer to individual practices or larger clinics? In any case, I'd say they should carry:

amenity=doctors or amenity=clinic depending on size
healthcare=doctor or healthcare=clinic, likewise
healthcare:speciality=dermatology or healthcare:speciality=plastic_surgery if applicable, depending on the type of practice
shop=beauty if they also offer non-medical beauty treatments?

Obviously, this tagging should only be used for legally licensed clinics with practising doctors. These will have their licence number clearly shown on the storefront. Illegal clinics are apparently also prevalent, but I guess we probably shouldn't be tagging those.

And finally, there's the original query, the health stations (สถานีอนามัย) aka tambon health promoting hospitals (รพ.สต.). These are found in every tambon throughout the country, and are usually staffed with community health workers, though some may also have resident nurses and/or doctors. More typically, nurses and/or doctors from the nearby hospital may attend outpatients there a few days each week (or month), but are not permanently stationed there.

There's a tag, amenity=health_post, whose description appears to closely match this type of facility. It's barely used, though, with only a few hundred instances, mostly in Nepal. I don't think it's recognised by any renderer (though of course, we shouldn't tag for the renderer).

Should we decide to use this tag for the health stations/THPHs (and convert the existing ones to use the tag)?

Oh, and in Bangkok, the equivalent of health stations are called public health centres (ศูนย์บริการสาธารณสุข), though most of these are large facilities with at least one resident doctor, multiple nurses and staff, and probably should be tagged as amenity=clinic.

Last edited by Paul_012 (2020-06-14 13:24:29)

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#2 2020-06-14 05:08:42

nitinatsangsit
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From: Bangkok
Registered: 2020-04-03
Posts: 29

Re: Tagging of healthcare facilities

In Thai OpenStreetMap Facebook Group
https://www.facebook.com/groups/thaiosm … 733371799/

We suggested to use amenity=doctors , maybe with additional tag health_facility:type=health_centre and healthcare = doctor , follow the Peru's similar guidelines.

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#3 2020-06-14 10:16:01

AlaskaDave
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From: Homer, Alaska ; Chiang Mai
Registered: 2013-09-21
Posts: 384
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Re: Tagging of healthcare facilities

Regarding this statement:
"Should we decide to use this tag for the health stations/THPHs (and convert the existing ones to use the tag)?"

I'd say, yes, if we can come to a consensus here, it would be very helpful if someone edited the existing amenity=hospital  objects (those that are actually health stations), in Thailand and converted them to the new tagging system. I've started to use the newer healthcare tagging but I'm working on Alaska projects right now, mostly geographic and landcover features so am not up to speed on the whole range of possibilities. I haven't mapped any of these in Thailand in quite a while but when I last did one, I used the simple amenity=hospital tag.

Needless to say, it would also be helpful if the Thailand Wiki were updated to list and explain any specific characteristics relevant to Thailand.

Last edited by AlaskaDave (2020-06-14 10:18:15)

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#4 2020-06-15 17:51:13

Paul_012
Member
Registered: 2011-08-05
Posts: 189

Re: Tagging of healthcare facilities

I guess the main consideration would be how we view the semantic meaning of the amenity=doctors/healthcare=doctor tags. Would it still be accurate if the place has doctors available only on certain days, while their main function covers more basic public health activities? (Technically if there are fixed days/hours for doctor visits this could probably be listed with opening_hours:doctor=* or something, but such an approach wouldn't be practical.)

On the other hand, it's not just doctors that are available only certain times at the health stations. Dental services, lab testing, counselling, etc. are also similarly scheduled. Looking through this angle, a tag that better reflects the diversity of services offered might be desirable. Tagging as amenity=clinic might be more inclusive in this aspect, but might over-represent their capabilities since the tag is supposed to be used for larger facilities.

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#5 2020-06-16 01:14:27

AlaskaDave
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From: Homer, Alaska ; Chiang Mai
Registered: 2013-09-21
Posts: 384
Website

Re: Tagging of healthcare facilities

Tagging as amenity=clinic might be more inclusive in this aspect, but might over-represent their capabilities since the tag is supposed to be used for larger facilities.

In my experience, the requirement that a clinic has a minimum of 10 doctors is overreaching. The discussion page attached to the tag indicates that there was a conversation about that requirement and it is far from obvious that a firm consensus emerged from it.

The small healthcare facilities I see in small towns in Thailand seem to exactly define a clinic in my thinking; "A healthcare office having a doctor or doctors and a nurse or nurses available for less life-threatening health issues. Some offer specialized treatments but many do not and only handle the more general health issues."

The general comment from the tag's front page, right panel says "A clinic is a medical centre, with more staff than a doctor's office, that does not admit inpatients." This statement fine and I agree with it but then the body of the page goes on to expand the definition extensively.

Last edited by AlaskaDave (2020-06-16 01:23:22)

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#6 2020-06-24 21:37:18

stephankn
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Registered: 2010-05-04
Posts: 525

Re: Tagging of healthcare facilities

I am catching up with a larger pile of photos from a mapping trip in Isaan. I saw recently a lot of them tagged as hospital. They even have that in their new name now. Also Google maps to check our competitor has them as hospitals.

Still I feel a bit uncomfortable as with my western background of health care systems I expect from a hospital emergency services. This is why those having a 24/7 emergency department get the additional emergency=yes

I hope that those not local and in need of emergency care do call the ambulance instead of looking up OSM to find some place for treatment. There are also emergencies needing professional care not as time critical as a stroke or heart attack. Like a broken arm or animal bites. I never tried, but according to my wife these Health promoting hospitals should be able to call a doctor from nearby to come there in case of emergencies or they would redirect you to some larger and better equipped facilities. Jo is confident they have paramedic like trained staff there being able to do first aid.

The later would justify the amenity=hospital tagging. Because the amenity=doctors almost always have limited opening hours. I mapped hundreds of them.

In case of emergency the order would be emergency=yes, then hospital, then doctors.

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#7 2020-06-25 04:20:29

nitinatsangsit
Member
From: Bangkok
Registered: 2020-04-03
Posts: 29

Re: Tagging of healthcare facilities

stephankn wrote:

Because the amenity=doctors almost always have limited opening hours.

The Subdistrict Health Promoting Hospital is also have limited opening hours.

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#8 2020-06-25 08:18:44

stephankn
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Registered: 2010-05-04
Posts: 525

Re: Tagging of healthcare facilities

nitinatsangsit wrote:

The Subdistrict Health Promoting Hospital is also have limited opening hours.

As I have no first-hand experience with them: How restricted are they? Does it depend on the individual location? Do we have a rule of thumb on what time they are typically available?

I would not expect 24/7 (that would be my requirement to tag emergency=yes), but at least some availability during typical working hours.
Doctors often only three hours in the evening.

This is an example, sorry only on Google as searching my imagery stack takes quite long:
https://www.google.com/maps/@18.7827107 … 312!8i6656


What I am told is that you have doctors at least on stand-by in case something more urgent. Other services will be provided on appointment.

Can you please share what they typically provide in Health Promoting Hospitals from your perspective? What level of doctors are usually available on-site or on-call? what equipment is usually there? to what level can they handle emergencies? out-patients only?


On what criteria should we decide? the tagging? Could it be whether "in-patients" are treated? So beds for multi-day stays are available? And only then call it hospital? That would then bring us to tag these medical centers "amenity=clinic", even them having the hospital term in their name.

The wiki currently would guide towards this:

amenity=hospital is used for hospitals, i.e. institutions for health care providing treatment by specialised staff and equipment, and typically providing nursing care for longer-term patient stays.

In contrast, a medical centre with doctors for outpatient care only should be tagged amenity=clinic

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#9 2020-06-25 09:47:53

nitinatsangsit
Member
From: Bangkok
Registered: 2020-04-03
Posts: 29

Re: Tagging of healthcare facilities

Regarding discussing in Facebook link I shared above, the Subdistrict Health Promoting Hospital is not look like "hospital" in their name.
Staff that usually providing service at Subdistrict Health Promoting Hospital everyday is only nurse, not doctor. Operating hours is mostly around 08:00-16:00 daily, can be slightly different for each. It is providing service as first-aid and non-emergency case.
Doctors that look after each Subdistrict Health Promoting Hospital usually stand-by at District-level hospital, and come to provide service at the Subdistrict Health Promoting Hospital for some day in each month, which is scheduled beforehand.

From wiki:

typically providing nursing care for longer-term patient stays.

The Subdistrict Health Promoting Hospital does not have patient overnight stay.

a medical centre with doctors for outpatient care only should be tagged amenity=clinic

I think this is suited this case more than amenity=hospital.

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#10 2020-06-26 08:43:58

stephankn
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Registered: 2010-05-04
Posts: 525

Re: Tagging of healthcare facilities

Thanks for the update.

So for these Health Promoting Hospitals/โรงพยาบาลส่งเสริมสุขภาพตำบล how about this tagging:

The distinction from hospital is then based on the inpatient criteria, as also in the wiki: "Admission of inpatients is not provided"
Adding emergency=no to make it clear that this should be not the first point of contact if you have a heart-attack in the middle of the night. Wiki states this this hospital has no "emergency room". So should not conflict on their ability to provide first aid in less critical cases.

amenity=clinic
healthcare=clinic
emergency=no
name:en=xxx Health Promoting Hospital
name=xxx
name:th=xxx

I hope these Hospitals are not the 776 in Wikipedia mentioned as

Community hospitals (Thai: โรงพยาบาลชุมชน) are located in the district level and are usually limited to providing primary care treatment and are under the category M2, F1, F2 and F3 service level[3]. These will refer patients in need of more advanced or specialised care to general or regional hospitals. As of 2018, there are a total of 776 community hospitals in Thailand. Some community hospitals are capable of secondary care.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hospitals_in_Thailand

but belong to the category of the health centers. I slightly worry about this due to the frequency I observed them during my road trips.

As of 2019, Thailand's population of 68 million is served by 927 government hospitals and 363 private hospitals with 9,768 government health centres plus 25,615 private clinics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Thailand

This would allow us to use the amenity=hospital for these officially classified as hospital by the Ministry of Public Health.

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#11 2020-06-26 09:44:04

nitinatsangsit
Member
From: Bangkok
Registered: 2020-04-03
Posts: 29

Re: Tagging of healthcare facilities

stephankn wrote:

I hope these Hospitals are not the 776 in Wikipedia mentioned as

Community hospitals (Thai: โรงพยาบาลชุมชน) are located in the district level and are usually limited to providing primary care treatment and are under the category M2, F1, F2 and F3 service level[3]. These will refer patients in need of more advanced or specialised care to general or regional hospitals. As of 2018, there are a total of 776 community hospitals in Thailand. Some community hospitals are capable of secondary care.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hospitals_in_Thailand

No, the community hospitals is district-level. The Sub-district Health Promoting Hospitals is also described in Wikipedia downwards. There are 9826 of them across the country.

Last edited by nitinatsangsit (2020-06-26 09:49:31)

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#12 2020-06-26 21:23:23

stephankn
Moderator
Registered: 2010-05-04
Posts: 525

Re: Tagging of healthcare facilities

I am very surprised that there are so few in OSM mapped. My feeling was that I had mapped dozens of them, I wonder what I tagged them. Searching for "name"~"โรงพยาบาลส่งเสริมสุขภาพ ?ตำบล.+" returns only 111 POI.
And I just fixed one mis-tagged as hospice.

There must be more of them mapped, given that there are nearly 10k of them. And they have quite large signs. At least the ones I mapped. Any idea what the tagging of the missing ones is?

How about the proposed tagging for them?

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#13 2020-06-27 06:15:31

nitinatsangsit
Member
From: Bangkok
Registered: 2020-04-03
Posts: 29

Re: Tagging of healthcare facilities

Previously, the subdistrict health promoting hospital is called "health station" (สถานีอนามัย). In 2009 they all were upgraded to be subdistrict health promoting hospital (โรงพยาบาลส่งเสริมสุขภาพตำบล—รพ.สต.). However the upgrading is mostly focused more on their name than their services, so some people continued to call them health station. Maybe some mappers still tagged it as "สถานีอนามัย" somewhere in osm.

For the tagging scheme, what I've been tagging around Ayutthaya are amenity=doctors, following the semi-consensus in Thai OpenStreetMap Facebook Group. However, I'm open to any new tagging scheme we can have a consensus here.

Last edited by nitinatsangsit (2020-06-27 10:24:57)

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#14 2020-06-27 08:46:51

stephankn
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Registered: 2010-05-04
Posts: 525

Re: Tagging of healthcare facilities

I quickly searched for "name"~"สถานีอนามัย.*" and found another 29 nodes. 30 percent more, but still only a fraction of the total facilities.

We could review them later. I also remember a few years ago about tagging them as government run offices as the hospital category did not fit. Found some of these old nodes tagged like this by long-term mappers.

Waiting for Paul_012 to comment, who initially started this discussion.

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#15 2020-06-29 19:28:11

Paul_012
Member
Registered: 2011-08-05
Posts: 189

Re: Tagging of healthcare facilities

stephankn wrote:

So for these Health Promoting Hospitals/โรงพยาบาลส่งเสริมสุขภาพตำบล how about this tagging:

The distinction from hospital is then based on the inpatient criteria, as also in the wiki: "Admission of inpatients is not provided"
Adding emergency=no to make it clear that this should be not the first point of contact if you have a heart-attack in the middle of the night. Wiki states this this hospital has no "emergency room". So should not conflict on their ability to provide first aid in less critical cases.

amenity=clinic
healthcare=clinic
emergency=no
name:en=xxx Health Promoting Hospital
name=xxx
name:th=xxx

This would allow us to use the amenity=hospital for these officially classified as hospital by the Ministry of Public Health.

I agree with this suggestion. Personally I'm quite not concerned with the mismatched official names, though it might be a source of confusion for casual/irregular contributors, requiring periodical clean-up to fix mistakes.

We might want to keep a tracking tag to help distinguish these facilities from other types of clinics. Maybe designation=รพ.สต. (or designation=THPH)?

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#16 2020-06-29 19:37:39

Paul_012
Member
Registered: 2011-08-05
Posts: 189

Re: Tagging of healthcare facilities

There's a spreadsheet containing coordinates for all government healthcare facilities at data.go.th. Unfortunately the licence is probably not suitable for mechanical import, but perhaps it could be used for cross-checking?

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#17 2020-06-29 21:53:09

stephankn
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Registered: 2010-05-04
Posts: 525

Re: Tagging of healthcare facilities

I am just adding "โรงพยาบาลส่งเสริมสุขภาพตำบล บ้านนาไคร้". Jo suggested to use "Ban Na Khrai Subdistrict Health Promoting Hospital" instead of "Ban Na Khrai Health Promoting Hospital", which sounds reasonable.

So the boilerplat template to add would be:

amenity=clinic
healthcare=clinic
emergency=no
name:en=xxx Subdistrict Health Promoting Hospital
name=xxx
name:th=xxx

I updated the presets. If you have it in JOSM it will automatically pick it up on the next regular check of the cache.
https://code.osm-tools.org/latest/josm-thai-presets.zip

The name is quite unique. And mis-tagged places do not use this wording. I suspect that most amenity=hospital in Isaan could be these Health Promoting Hospitals. So no designation required.

In case we document it in the Wiki, I can also link to a different page in the presets (maybe a sub-section of the Thailand page?). Currently it points at amenity=clinic.

Overpass query for hospitals:
https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/VAC

A random check directly found Nodes with shortened tagging.
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1802406245

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#18 2020-06-29 22:37:39

Paul_012
Member
Registered: 2011-08-05
Posts: 189

Re: Tagging of healthcare facilities

For the English name, all varieties of "Subdistrict Health Promoting Hospital", "Subdistrict Health Promotion Hospital", "Sub-district Health Promoting Hospital", "Sub-district Health Promotion Hospital", "Tambon Health Promoting Hospital" and "Tambon Health Promotion Hospital" appear to be in use on the web. It's hard to tell if there's an official preference, since the signs I've seen are only in Thai.

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#19 2020-06-30 05:33:46

nitinatsangsit
Member
From: Bangkok
Registered: 2020-04-03
Posts: 29

Re: Tagging of healthcare facilities

Paul_012 wrote:

For the English name, all varieties of "Subdistrict Health Promoting Hospital", "Subdistrict Health Promotion Hospital", "Sub-district Health Promoting Hospital", "Sub-district Health Promotion Hospital", "Tambon Health Promoting Hospital" and "Tambon Health Promotion Hospital" appear to be in use on the web. It's hard to tell if there's an official preference, since the signs I've seen are only in Thai.

Unfortunately there isn't any official translation for โรงพยาบาลส่งเสริมสุขภาพตำบล.
Since ตำบล have been officially translated to subdistrict, so we should use Subdistrict as the first word. For others, I'm not sure but I think I have seen Promoting more than Promotion.

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#20 2020-06-30 07:45:08

AlaskaDave
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From: Homer, Alaska ; Chiang Mai
Registered: 2013-09-21
Posts: 384
Website

Re: Tagging of healthcare facilities

Based on paul_12's naming variations I made several Overpass searches to see if I could get a list of all such places in Thailand.  My query was to simply retrieve objects having either the tag (amenity=hospital or amenity=clinic) and the word "Subdistrict" and the word "Hospital" in their name:en tag. (A search using the same criteria except to substitute the word "Clinic" for "Hospital" retrieved no results.)

I was surprised to learn that of the 167 found objects none were in the Chiang Mai area. Most are in Issan. Furthermore, only one of those has either the word "Promotion" or "Promoting" in that tag. This was the only one: Ban Khok Klang Subdistrict Health Promoting Hospital. There must be scores of such places that have only a simple amenity tag but no name:en tag. I know I've tagged them that way in the past because their Thai names are usually long and tedious for me to translate without a lot of effort.

I think it is going to be very difficult and time-consuming to edit those existing amenities properly without visiting them. The good news (sort of good news, anyway) is that many of the small clinics/hospitals we're discussing don't yet have an English name tag and there are only 167 that do.

It's a good idea to firm up our tagging now before many more of these get added to OSM.

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#21 2020-06-30 18:22:29

stephankn
Moderator
Registered: 2010-05-04
Posts: 525

Re: Tagging of healthcare facilities

Quite frequently we base on the research the Wikipedia community did before. They call it Health Promoting Hospital
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hospitals … _Hospitals

A cross-check with Google translate also returns Health Promoting Hospital. Removing Tambon then returns Promotion

There seems to be a WHO project with this name:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_pr … _hospitals

and they mention a Bangkok charter: https://www.who.int/healthpromotion/con … harter/en/

On the member states Thailand is not listed. So the status is a bit unclear for me.

This document calls them THPH, Tambon Health Promotion Hospital:
https://www.who.int/alliance-hpsr/proje … s.pdf?ua=1

This publication and all references call Health Promoting:
https://www.anamai.moph.go.th/ewtadmin/ … l2No8E.pdf

So certainly the translation is not uniform. We could settle on one way. As there are usually no English signs around I think other mappers will follow what is the example on existing places or simply use the preset.

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#22 2020-07-01 19:14:52

Paul_012
Member
Registered: 2011-08-05
Posts: 189

Re: Tagging of healthcare facilities

Syntax may be a reason to prefer the translated word, as "X Subdistrict Health Promoting Hospital" allows for the natural phrasing of "X Subdistrict" in the name, while "Tambon X" cannot be included in the phrase without either omitting or duplicating the word.

It should be quite easy to identify them based on name alone. Looking at the above-linked Overpass query, most of the currently tagged hospitals appear to be THPHs. Much of the conversion can probably can be done in a spreadsheet, if it's agreed on.

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#23 2020-07-01 19:46:15

Paul_012
Member
Registered: 2011-08-05
Posts: 189

Re: Tagging of healthcare facilities

I've re-tagged some 60 individual doctors' clinics to amenity=doctors / healthcare=doctor (changesets 87414857 and 87414921). I only looked at the names, and changed just the most obvious ones.

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#24 2020-07-02 10:43:43

AlaskaDave
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From: Homer, Alaska ; Chiang Mai
Registered: 2013-09-21
Posts: 384
Website

Re: Tagging of healthcare facilities

I've re-tagged some 60 individual doctors' clinics to amenity=doctors / healthcare=doctor

First off, thanks for the effort paul_12. This is a comment, sort of an aside, about Google Translate but it bears on this conversation because of how tricky it is to transliterate Thai to English. This is something all non-Thai speaker OSMers struggle with constantly.

When paul_12 posted his reply I checked a few of the clinics and realized he hadn't added the English transliteration to the ones he updated. Lately, I have been using Google Translate in addition to the Thai-Romanization program to convert long phrases or names to English so I thought it would be interesting to try it on the name of one of the clinics in the first changeset supplied by paul_12. My thinking was that later when I have some time on my hands I would go through those clinics and add the name:en tags to them.

I copied and pasted คลินิกแพทย์หญิงนภปกรณ์ into Google Translate and got this result: "Naphapakorn Clinic"

Sounds fine, right? However, when I put that same Thai name into the Thai Romanization program, it produced this result: "Khlinik Phaet Ying Noppha Pakon"

Disregarding the different spelling renditions for a moment and looking only at the wording, there are more words in the second result than Google's result. What are those additional words and why did Google ignore them? My wife explained that the words "Phaet Ning" mean that the clinic is staffed by female doctors. For whatever reason, Google ignored this fact, perhaps because they don't consider it an actual part of the name, but whatever the reason it might be very good for us to tag such places so that a male patient who was uncomfortable with a female doctor or a female patient uncomfortable with a male, could benefit from such knowledge beforehand. Once again, non-Thai speakers mapping in Thailand are flummoxed by the difficulty of properly translating and transliterating Thai to English.

But beyond that, is the gender of the doctors practicing at a particular clinic something we should consider in our tagging? If it is, how should that distinction best be handled? Is there a good way in English to reveal the words Female Doctors or Male Doctors in the clinic name? The words "Phaet Ning" are present in Thai but how would the name look in English if those words were included?

Naphapakorn Clinic (Female doctors), or Naphapakorn Female Doctor Clinic? It's such a tricky question that Google didn't even attempt to answer it.

Or we could add a tag, for example, doctors:sex=male/female/mixed, doctors:gender=male/female/mixed, or perhaps gender_type=male/female/mixed?

Only the last one exists presently and it has only about 115 instances.

Alternatively, we can forget about the gender of the practitioners entirely. IMO, however, we will still need to come up with a standard way to handle the gender references in those Thai names.

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#25 2020-07-02 12:40:39

Paul_012
Member
Registered: 2011-08-05
Posts: 189

Re: Tagging of healthcare facilities

AlaskaDave wrote:

It's such a tricky question that Google didn't even attempt to answer it.

That's actually a pretty apt assessment of the issue. He he.

The long answer is that นายแพทย์ (nai phaet) and แพทย์หญิง (phaet ying) are professional titles for male and female doctors, which would normally be translated as just "doctor", so in this case a usual translation would be "Doctor Naphapakorn's Clinic" (whatever the spelling). That of course loses the indication of the doctor's gender. Here, the inclusion of the doctor's title in the clinic's name is probably deliberate, as she appears to be an obstetrician, a field where some patients are known to prefer female doctors. Are there natural-sounding options? "Doctoress" doesn't seem like a good alternative in this century. "Doctor Ms Naphapakorn" might be a workable, if awkward, solution. I think a gender tag will more likely be understood as that of patients.

Ultimately it should of course depend on how the business writes its own name in English. Looking at their Facebook page, there's a stylised logo that says "NK Clinic", but it's so much less informative I don't think it's meant to be the actual name. I'd probably do what Google does, drop the gender, and just go with "Doctor Naphapakorn's Clinic".

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