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#1 2019-10-15 15:37:46

Russ McD
Member
From: Hereford & Chiang Mai.
Registered: 2011-04-17
Posts: 244

So who the crap are Kaart ?

Hot on the heels of the other Corporate vandals, I now see a bunch of cavalier mappers going under the banner of Kaart... fancy website ... and the usual "lets change things for the sake of it" attitude.
Just sent this to one of their "local mappers" ... based in Utah !!

Nathan, Utah is a long way from Chiang Mai … have you ever been here ? Why would you change a road that links two primary highways, that we call a primary_link … into a bloody residential road ? I tagged that in line with established principles here. You didn’t stop there, you changed the next one as well. There is not a single house on this street and it forms the main entrance approach to Chiang Mai university. Its unclassified, not residential. I live here, believe me ! If you can explain your rationale it would help … if you doing it to impress your Mates, please stop. We take a lot of time to get things right here … we hate to see Kaart playing with our data under the guise of “improving it”. What other damage has Kaart done we have yet to discover ? Rgds, Russ.

https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/54780910
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/54780909

So, keep an eye open for more road changes in our area ... ahhh, its getting so tedious now.

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#2 2019-10-15 16:12:20

Russ McD
Member
From: Hereford & Chiang Mai.
Registered: 2011-04-17
Posts: 244

Re: So who the crap are Kaart ?

Oh, yes there is more ... I see the small Jed Yod-Chang Kiang road has been made Tertiary.  For Gods sake, its a small Soi with barely enough room for one car to pass in places.  Why have these jokers seen fit to make it Tertiary ?
And where it exits north onto the CM.4307, its about 2 mts wide there.  I know, I live next to it !
And we have a new secondary road originating from Maya Mall ... not a Trunk_link which would at least make a modicum of sense ..and it starts from an arbitrary point ... the rationale is blatantly random.
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/666272203
I guess they just like to see pretty colors or something.

So instead of spending my next 2 days inputting the valuable data I gathered in Mae Hong Son province, I shall have to waste my time undoing every change these children have created in Chiang Mai.  We know from experience that DWG reverts just cause more problems than it's worth.... manual changes are more reliable.

Kaart - trace forests and lakes by all means, but please don't vandalise our road status after other locals have created it, at least not without checking first.

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#3 2019-10-16 10:33:19

AlaskaDave
Member
From: Homer, Alaska ; Chiang Mai
Registered: 2013-09-21
Posts: 328
Website

Re: So who the crap are Kaart ?

Goddamn it, here we go again! Another round with KAART jokers this time.
The problem with OpenStreetMap is that it's too open. The strength of OSM is that it's open.
How to resolve these two characteristics? Anyone can come in and screw things up, whether intentionally or through ignorance, and we're left to fix things.

I share your frustration, Russ.

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#4 2019-10-16 20:14:51

stephankn
Moderator
Registered: 2010-05-04
Posts: 472

Re: So who the crap are Kaart ?

Hello Russ,

I can feel your frustration.

Could you please share the links to the changeset discussions? I couldn't find it on the kaart change.

First action on a suspicious change should be a changeset comment. These are public and we can point to a larger damage done vy paid or directed mappers.

Private messsges are exactly that. They don't count.

You can use osmcha to systematically monitor changes.

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#5 2019-10-17 03:47:57

Russ McD
Member
From: Hereford & Chiang Mai.
Registered: 2011-04-17
Posts: 244

Re: So who the crap are Kaart ?

For the record, Nathan did respond with an an apology and and an offer to fix.  Im hoping through him, the rest of the Kaart team get our feedback ... doubtful. 
PS: still coming across Grab "invented streets" ... guess they never fixed as promised !

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#6 2019-10-17 21:04:10

AnonJason
New Member
Registered: 2019-10-17
Posts: 1
Website

Re: So who the crap are Kaart ?

Our team at Kaart is steadily seeking to improve OSM data in Chiang Mai, Thailand.  In regards to this feature https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/54780910, our editors appropriately carried the classification of the intersecting road through to the other side of the dual carriageway.  This feature does not exhibit physical channelization nor does it function as a slip road/ramp connecting the through lane of a carriageway to another road.  Furthermore, this feature contains the name of that intersecting road, which is worth noting as the OSM Wiki page on links states that links normally do not contain names. For more information on links, please see the OSM Wiki page which can be found here: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Highway_link.

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#7 2019-10-20 02:53:10

Russ McD
Member
From: Hereford & Chiang Mai.
Registered: 2011-04-17
Posts: 244

Re: So who the crap are Kaart ?

While I appreciate your feedback, the Wiki page you reference seems quite clear to me, and while U-turn is not mentioned specifically, they do describe :

Internal turning lanes
There are also physically channelized turning lanes in the central reservation/median of dual carriageways/divided highways.[6] They should be tagged with the _link classification of the highest classified road they connect to.

Canal Road (Hwy 121) is a dual carriageway physically separated by a canal.  The physically channelized turning lanes (or U-turns) are all tagged as links.  This is convention throughout Thailand ... if you do not agree, please state your reasons on our forum, and allow us to comment.  If we support your interpretation,  I trust you will assist us in changing every other instance in the country.   Trawling the Thai map, I accept you may find other links incorrectly tagged, but this would be down to new users, or very old data.

Furthermore, the table https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Lin … ways_types seems quite clear, in that the connection between two primary roads takes the primary_link tag.  We adopt this convention in Thailand, and hope that others who are not local, respect our established conventions.

Yes, the way you highlight here does carry a street name, which I agree, is not appropriate, and will be removed. 

However, while on the subject of 2 Chiang Rai Road, just why did your organisation change it from Unclassified to Residential, given the fact its bounded on one side by the University and the other by predominantly copy & coffee shops ? Its a significant connecting road which to some, they might argue as deserving Tertiary status, rather than a downgrade as Nathan saw fit.

The point is Kaart, we welcome improvements to the Thai map, but we bitterly resent organisations just coming in and changing existing data, when we have already determined the tagging for a particular way.  OSM is about respecting others work, and I encourage you to view the history of a way before making significant changes, and if the determination was made by a longstanding and experienced local mapper, please have the courtesy to contact him first.

Last edited by Russ McD (2019-10-20 03:07:24)

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#8 2019-11-04 09:20:47

Russ McD
Member
From: Hereford & Chiang Mai.
Registered: 2011-04-17
Posts: 244

Re: So who the crap are Kaart ?

Just left this changeset comment about another piece of Kaart legendary editing ....

Perhaps you jokers in Kaart Utah can explain your rationale about the road that runs along the canal ...
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/77848398
For 10 years this way 77848398 has been correctly tagged as an Unclassified road. Its starts at the junction with the 1096 and that's where mile-marker Zero is.
So firstly you decide to reclassify it as a residential road along its length ... good move Mr Otter, a canal on one side, fields the other bar a 7-11.  But then Mr Rose comes along and decides it should go all the way up to Tertiary status - something we use here for roads that have a reference number.
But yet for some reason, he decides to just change it from the junction with the Samoeng Old road and not at the start ?? That can stay as residential, which of course, its not.
Could Kaart please explain why changing the status of roads in such a haphazard manner is "improving our map" ?  Anyone coming down the 1096 from Pai, and heading for city is likely to be directed along the residential soi on the West bank, given its equal status with Kaarts newly changed road on the right.
I say again, Kaart please explain your logic, and don't fob us off with some excuse about a mistake - you are making mistakes all over Chiang Mai and its really pissing local mappers off to see our hard work being trampled over !

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#9 2019-11-04 19:47:52

Bernhard Hiller
Member
Registered: 2011-05-10
Posts: 885

Re: So who the crap are Kaart ?

On the other side, the road is tagged as a tertiary farther south to road #107 - I do not know if that's appropriate according to "ground truth", but at least this part is consistent.
If one opts for tertiary, I'd use that tag also for the section to the junction with #1096, as you mentioned.

By the way, at the junction at the current northern end of the "tertiary", shouldn't the roads to the right and to the left (Samoeng Old road) be "unclassified" instead of "residential"? That route seems to have some "collector" character for the residential areas there.

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#10 2019-11-05 02:46:46

Russ McD
Member
From: Hereford & Chiang Mai.
Registered: 2011-04-17
Posts: 244

Re: So who the crap are Kaart ?

Bernhard,
Yes of course the Samoeng Old Road should have been left as Unclassified.  That was yet another Kaart edit where they have completely gone against our Wiki.
When I get a free weekend, I'll go about some mass reverts of the changes they have made over here. I'm already noticing more and more instances of where my Garmin does some crazy routing thanks to their tagging changes.
If they really are bored, then I wish they would trace cornfields in Kansas, rather than play around with the Thai map, undoing years of our hard work.

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#11 2019-11-10 04:44:23

Russ McD
Member
From: Hereford & Chiang Mai.
Registered: 2011-04-17
Posts: 244

Re: So who the crap are Kaart ?

To those who find entertainment in the Grab & Kaart efforts, I just posted this changeset comment ...
It refers to Way https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/136605132/history

Changeset 75813788:

I fear the Chiang Mai map has now just become a battleground for the "highway status changers" ....
This poor little way (Way 136605132) was once part of the road that followed the river. Alaska Dave tagged it as unclassified many years ago and added a tag to stipulate it was not one way.

Then 6 months ago, a member of Kaart decided it needed to be a trunk_link.
A week later another Kaart member made it a secondary_link.
Another two days passed when a third Kaart member decided maybe after all it was unclassified.
That lasted a whole 2 weeks, but finally succumbed to another change by yet another Kaart member, and it became tertiary.

But it didn't stop there ... a month later, enter someone from The Grab team, who, not wanting to be outdone, decided it should be secondary ... and to crown it, added a one way tag, which the best of my knowledge, it is not (I'll check later).
Finally Grab had one last parting shot and changed it to a secondary_link, a month later.

Grab/Kaart - please take your indecisiveness elsewhere. Your efforts are becoming the laughing stock of the seasoned OSM community here.
Russ.

Last edited by Russ McD (2019-11-10 04:46:35)

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