Zulässige Mitglieder einer Fahrradroute

https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/5789484434 → als “guidepost”
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/5789484441 → als “POI”

eventuell sollte man für Tafeln “information” setzen.

Wiki ergänzen - vielleicht sollte das diskutiert werden. Aber dann wird es wieder “zerdiskutiert”.

Ich halte Radwegweiser in Route-Relation für unnötig und Sehenswürdigkeiten für störend. Dadurch werden die Route-Relationen nur unnötig aufgebläht ohne erkennbaren nutzen.
Wer Tagesausflüge in seiner Gegend macht, braucht solche Hinweise nicht und Touristen werden ihre Route doch eher anhand der Sehenswürdigkeiten planen.

bisCHtum? :sunglasses:

Danke …

… dann einfach alle POI, guidepost, information oder alle node ausfiltern.
Manche finden es vielleicht sinnvoll mehr als die Strecken in der Route zu finden.

Ich habe mir mal die von geri-oc genannten Beispiele in #12 angeschaut. Die gewählten Rollen guidepost (gibt’s lt. Wiki wirklich) und POI (gibt’s lt. Wiki nicht) scheinen mir schon sinnvoll, sind eben aber nur tlw. definiert. Eine Hinweistafel auf eine Sehenswürdigkeit mit der Rolle guidepost aufzunehmen widerspricht allerdings der Wiki Beschreibung für guidepost total.
Solange man zusätzlich zu den Wegstrecken der Route nur nodes in die Relation aufnimmt, gibt es wohl auch keinen Fehler im OSM Relation Analyzer (to be verified).
Ich werde zukünftig guidepost (Wegweiser, die sich auf die Route selbst beziehen) und poi (Kleinschreibung?) als role verwenden, die Gebäudeumrisse aus meiner Beispielroute #1 aber entfernen. Mal sehen, ob ich den Ersteller vorher noch kontaktieren kann.
@geri-oc: die Kulturroute, Produktroute und Naturerlebnisroute sind alle kaputt. Vielleicht kannst du die mal prüfen?

Das sagt sich so leicht. Wer ist dazu technisch in der Lage? Wenn ich jetzt auf osm.org eine Wegrelation aufrufe, dann sehe ich den Weg rot markiert. Wenn dazu noch drölfzig POIs markiert werden, die wer-auch-immer aufnehmenswert fand, wird’s sehr unübersichtlich.

IMHO zieht hier die Regel, dass wir Fakten abbilden – und nicht alles, was manche eventuell sinnvoll finden könnten. Die Ausschilderung einer Route gehört zu dieser, also gehört sie auch in die Relation. Infotafeln, die als Teil der Route gestaltet sind, gehören IMHO auch dazu (bei thematischen Wegen auf jeden Fall), die können meinetwegen mit role poi oder information in die Relation. Aber die POIs selbst gehören da wirklich nicht rein. Das ist mir zu subjektiv – wer entscheidet denn, was alles sehenswert ist und was vom Sehenswerten in die Route gehört? Soll bei der Fachwerktour durch xy-Stadt wirklich der Umriss jedes Fachwerkhauses in die Routenrelation? Wo ziehen wir die Grenze?

Hier gilt für mich wie z.B. auch beim access-Tagging: Wir bilden Tatsachen ab, keine Empfehlungen, und Tatsache beim Erfassen einer Route ist alles, was beim Anlegen der Route als Teil von ihr mit angelegt/aufgestellt wurde. Der Abstecher nach Burg Schleimfels mag empfehlenswert sein, Teil der Burgentour ist der Umriss von Schleimfels dadurch aber nicht.

–ks

Meine Meinung dazu: Nur was explizit für die Route konzipiert und zugleich notwendig ist setze ich zum Wegverlauf in die Routenrelation. Wegweiser tagge ich zwar, packe sie aber nicht in die Relation, weil der Linienverlauf ohnehin klar ist. Info-Tafeln nehme ich als stop auf. excursion/alternative/extension könnte ich mir als weitere Rollen neben forward/backward vorstellen. Aber nicht die sonstigen Objekte, die in einer Wegbeschreibung stehen. Die nächste Wegebeschreibung ist noch etwas lyrischer und benennt entfernte Kirchtürme, Windräder oder gleich den angrenzenden Nationalpark …
Gruß, cepesko

Also zu mindestens die Wegweiser als Rolle “guidepost” mit aufzunehmen, finde ich eigentlich sehr reizvoll… zu dem Zeitpunkt, als ich hier im Spreewald ein Großteil der Rad- und Wanderwege erfasst habe, war das Tagging laut Wiki aber leider noch nicht soweit(?!)… Im Nachhinein, allein auf Grund des Vorhandenseins der Wegweiser, vermag ich es hier nicht mehr zuzuordnen… Zu unterschiedlich ist die Situation Vor Ort. Da ich mich hier im Spreewald im Umfeld von drei Landkreisen mit kreisübergreifenden Routen bewege, finde ich auch jeweils voneinander abweichende Beschilderungen vor… ein Landkreis hat obendrein mittlerweile für die Radler ein Knotenpunktnetz installiert…

Grundsätzlich schätze ich die Information, an welcher Stelle ich bei einer bestimmten Route einen Wegweiser oder eine zu der Route gehörende Information zu erwarten habe, als sehr hilfreich ein, gerade wenn man wie hier unterschiedliche Art und Weisen der Beschilderung für ein und die Selbe Sache vorfindet… Dies Info habe ich nicht, wenn ich den Wegweiser nicht mit in die Route aufnehme… Ähnlich sehe ich das bei direkt themenbezogenen Routen deren Teil z.B. auf der Strecke liegende Infotafeln einschließt… Diese sollten dann auch mit in die Route… Taggingmöglichkteiten (=Rollennamen) wurden hier schon genannt…

Sven

Ich trage nur ein was vor Ort ersichtlich ist - da sind es teilweise nur Abschnitte.
Sicher könnte man von der Tafel den Verlauf übertragen - oder man nimmt die Webseite.
Ich finde es sogar gut, wenn Teile fehlen, vielleicht fährt jemand dann extra diesen fehlenden Teil zu Dokumentation.

Hier die betreffenden Changeset Kommentare:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/13172092

Ich habe den CS auch kommentiert.
Sicher kann man noch zusätzlich zu den Mühlengebäuden einen node als POI für die Relation anlegen - doch das wäre auch nicht richtig. Und die Mühle nur als POI und nicht als Gebäude?
Schaut doch einfach einmal eine Routenbeschreibung an, was dort enthalten ist. Bei der Mühlentour sind es nun einmal die Mühlen, die ich besuchen möchte - mit dem Fahrrad.

Warum stört den jemanden diese Angaben in einer Relation?

z.B. hier ist es nicht störend:
https://cycling.waymarkedtrails.org/#route?id=2424311&map=13!51.1989!14.6599

Und in einer gpx-Datei kann ich die Punkte und Kurz-Wege (Gebäude) entfernen und nutze nur die Wegstrecke für die Planung - wenn es so wichtig ist:


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EDIT:

Die Hausumrisse werden als Routenanteil im gpx Format heruntergeladen und dem Radler zur Umfahrung der Mühlen angeboten. Das ist mindestens unschön.

signposts und andere nodes (Bänke, viewpoints) werden übrigens offenbar überhaupt nicht berücksichtigt, weder bei Waymarked Trails noch bei Osmand. Vielleicht gibt es andere Apps, die das machen?

Das ist für den Hobby Radler sicher keine Option.

Na das ist doch ein Argument! Ich werde die Relation ändern. Vielen Dank für die Hinweise. :slight_smile:
Für alle die noch wissen möchten wie so eine MühlenStation aussieht: https://www.gpsies.com/pictures/ce/large/cenkqknmdmbtldlh_large_0014.jpg VG Pirolina

Nur in der Kartenanzeige stört es nicht, sobald Du aber z.B. das Höhenprofil öffnest oder die berechnete Streckenlänge ansiehst, wirst Du sehen, dass waymarkedtrails mit den Daten dieser Relation nicht viel anfangen kann (In die Länge werden z.B. auch die Häuserumrisse, der zu Relation hinzufügten Gebäude, einfach hinzuaddiert).

Infotafeln, die extra und nur für die eine Radroute aufgestellt wurden, finde ich als Member OK. Ein Gebäude, das nicht extra für die Radroute gebaut wurde, gehört aus meiner Sicht nicht in eine Radroute.

Wenn man sich die gpx runterladen kann - kann man auch die Hausumrisse in der Datei einfach löschen und nur die Route-gpx nutzen - siehe Beispiel oben.

Unschön fände ich zum Beispiel bei der Mühlenroute nicht auf die Mühle hingewiesen zu werden.

Siehe https://cycling.waymarkedtrails.org/#route?id=2424311&map=17!51.2034!14.6483 - ich kann doch entscheiden, diesen “extra_way” der Mühle zu nutzen oder nicht?

Wenn sie dir als Hobbyradler in der gpx mit angeboten werden kannst du doch entscheiden, ob du dieses “Objekt” umfahren möchtest.
Mir als Hobbyradler würde die Mühle als Bestandteil der Mühlenroute z.B. als Fotoobjekt fehlen.

Es sind doch keine Fehler - die unbedingt zu korrigieren sind - da gibt es viel mehr Probleme und Problemchen.

@Pirolina - ich würde die Relation so belassen.

Ok - wenn die 100 oder 200 m bei den 32 km stören.
Und im Höhenprofil sehe ich auch auf welcher Höhe die Mühle liegt und sehe auch das Höhenprofil des Wegverlaufes. Unschön ist das die Angabe auf der Tabellenachse nicht passt - lässt sich vielleicht ändern.

Na gut - wenn “so viele” der Meinung sind das es falsch ist …

Ich wäre hier auch explizit dafür, mit dem Role-Tag der Relation zu arbeiten und wie hier z.B. für Gebäude, Infotafeln und Wegweiser entsprechende Role-Angaben zu machen. Wiki sagt aus, daß wenn Role leer ist, die Objekte die Wegstrecke als solches kennzeichnen: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Relation:route&uselang=de#Members und https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:route%3Dbicycle#Members Eigentlich kann man dann annehmen, daß alle anderen Objekte mit einer Role Angabe (egal welcher, aber ungleich forward/backward) z.B. für solche Höhenprofile nicht mit verarbeitet werden sollen…

Gerade dieses Mühlenbeispiel ist sehr gut und zeigt den mitunter enthaltenen Informationsgehalt solcher Routen, den ich auch nicht würde vermissen wollen…

Sven

Die gehören nicht zur eigentlichen Route.
Auswertungen sollten nichts desto trotz nur Member mit role oder als zur Route zugehörig annehmen.