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#1 2019-03-05 13:47:00

Jonathan Masur
Member
Registered: 2016-04-23
Posts: 99

Tunnel du Grand-Saint-Bernard -> edit war

Bonjour à tous,
Il y a une guerre d'édition quand au statut de la route du tunnel du Grand-Saint-Bernard, entre les partisans du highway=motorway, highway=trunk ou highway=primary.
Je n'ai pas d'opinion mais ça serait bien de vous mettre d'accord une fois pour toutes et d'arrêter de changer tout le temps. Car ces guerres d'éditions ont aussi un impact du côté Suisse. Merci de votre compréhension.

Hello everyone,
There is an edit war when it comes to the status of the road with the tunnel under the Grand-Saint-Bernard, between proponents of highway=motorway, highway=trunk and highway=primary. I don't have any particular opinion, but it would be great to see you guys finally agreeing on something and stop to change it regularly. Because those edit wars also have an impact on the Swiss side of the border. Thank you.

Last edited by Jonathan Masur (2019-03-05 13:47:15)

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#2 2019-03-06 13:14:55

Andreas Lattmann
Member
Registered: 2016-11-04
Posts: 28

Re: Tunnel du Grand-Saint-Bernard -> edit war

Bonjour Jonathan Masur, je n'étais pas au courant de cette édition. Dès que j'en aurai le temps, je vérifierai qui fait les modifications et je le signalerai sur la liste de diffusion italienne, qui est beaucoup plus suivie par ce forum. Merci d'avoir signalé cette erreur et je m'excuse pour cette édition.

Good morning Jonathan Masur, I was not aware of this editwar. As soon as I have time, I will verify who is making the changes and I will report it on the Italian mailing list, which is much more followed by this forum. Thank you for reporting and I apologize for this editwar.

Buongiorno Jonathan Masur, non ero a conoscenza di questa editwar. appena ho tempo verifico chi sta facendo le modifiche e provvederò a segnalarlo nella mailing list italiana, che è molto più seguita di questo forum. Ti ringrazio per la segnalazione e mi scuso per questa editwar.

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#3 2019-03-08 18:52:17

Jonathan Masur
Member
Registered: 2016-04-23
Posts: 99

Re: Tunnel du Grand-Saint-Bernard -> edit war

Merci beaucoup Andreas pour votre collaboration. J'espère qu'une solution stable sera trouvée.

Thank you Andreas for your collaboration. I hope a stable solution will be agreed on.

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#4 2019-03-12 12:04:20

dieterdreist
Member
From: Roma, Italia
Registered: 2010-09-22
Posts: 1,219
Website

Re: Tunnel du Grand-Saint-Bernard -> edit war

If the Swiss part of the route is a "Nationalstrasse" and the Italian part an "autostrada", we could change the highway value at the point where it changes (border?). No need to have the same class on both sides.

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#5 2019-03-14 08:23:36

Jonathan Masur
Member
Registered: 2016-04-23
Posts: 99

Re: Tunnel du Grand-Saint-Bernard -> edit war

I think it would be ugly to have the road tunnel change class in the middle. The Swiss part is not clearly marked so it's really up to the italians to decide. I don't care which class it is but I'd just like to stop seeing it changed every month or so.

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#6 2019-03-17 07:55:10

Andreas Lattmann
Member
Registered: 2016-11-04
Posts: 28

Re: Tunnel du Grand-Saint-Bernard -> edit war

No, it is not for the Italian community to decide, it is the task of the two Italian and Swiss communities. In OSM we collaborate, we don't delegate... ? I agree that every month the street class must not change.

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#7 2019-04-10 10:43:50

Jonathan Masur
Member
Registered: 2016-04-23
Posts: 99

Re: Tunnel du Grand-Saint-Bernard -> edit war

Any news regarding to this issue ? Did the discussion on the mailing list lead to any conclusions ?

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#8 2019-04-10 13:49:52

muralito
Member
Registered: 2012-09-04
Posts: 1,771

Re: Tunnel du Grand-Saint-Bernard -> edit war

Hi Jonathan.

Could you verify that the access restrictions are well mapped? The way you refer (205120723) now is tagged as motor_vehicle=no, motorcar=yes, motorcycle=yes, and it seems to me that this tagging implies that only cars and motorcycles could use it (no trucks, no buses, etc).

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#9 2019-04-12 12:49:24

Jonathan Masur
Member
Registered: 2016-04-23
Posts: 99

Re: Tunnel du Grand-Saint-Bernard -> edit war

I can't verify exactly but motor_vehicle=no is definitely wrong, this tunnel is intended to be for motor vehicles. Different kinds of vehicles can use it for a toll. There's a bus line passing through so buses can definitely use this tunnel !

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#10 2019-04-22 08:03:11

Anonix35
Member
Registered: 2019-04-22
Posts: 2

Re: Tunnel du Grand-Saint-Bernard -> edit war

Bonjour à tous,

Concernant le Motor_vehicle=no, c'est moi qui l'avais rajouté à l'époque où le tunnel avait du etre fermé pendant plusieurs mois à cause de travaux. J'ai surement du oublier de l'enlever.
Pour le statut de ce tunnel (idem pour celui du Mont Blanc), il est indiqué coté Italien que c'est une autoroute (Panneau vert), et du coté Suisse, c'est une voie rapide (Panneau vert avec une voiture). C'est sur que cela n'arrange pas la chose et faire une séparation au niveau de la frontière n'est pas une bonne idée je trouve.

Cependant, mais cela reste mon opinion en temps qu'usager de ces routes, qu'il est préférable de mettre highway=trunk pour les deux tunnels. Ce sont des routes internationales de grandes importantances mais elles ne sont limités qu'à 70 ou 80 et ne possèdent qu'une voie dans chaque sens.

Last edited by Anonix35 (2019-04-22 10:43:55)

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#11 2019-05-05 14:51:41

Jonathan Masur
Member
Registered: 2016-04-23
Posts: 99

Re: Tunnel du Grand-Saint-Bernard -> edit war

Pour le statut de ce tunnel (idem pour celui du Mont Blanc), il est indiqué coté Italien que c'est une autoroute (Panneau vert)

C'est un panneau vert avec la lettre A ou un panneau vert avec une voiture ?

Je trouve aussi que ce n'est pas une bonne idée de faire la séparation à la frontière au milieu du tunnel. highway=trunk m'a l'air d'être une bonne idée, si ceci est accepté par la communauté italienne et que on décide de ne pas toucher à ça dans le futur.

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#12 2019-05-06 18:17:27

Anonix35
Member
Registered: 2019-04-22
Posts: 2

Re: Tunnel du Grand-Saint-Bernard -> edit war

C'est un panneau vert avec une voiture

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#13 2019-05-09 06:58:31

Andreas Lattmann
Member
Registered: 2016-11-04
Posts: 28

Re: Tunnel du Grand-Saint-Bernard -> edit war

Ok, j'essaie de le proposer dans la liste de diffusion italienne (malheureusement, la communauté italienne ne fréquente pas beaucoup le forum, mais utilise davantage la liste de diffusion).  Cela me semble une bonne idée.  Merci.

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#14 2019-05-09 09:22:48

IlBano
Member
Registered: 2019-04-11
Posts: 4

Re: Tunnel du Grand-Saint-Bernard -> edit war

Je trouve aussi que ce n'est pas une bonne idée de faire la séparation à la frontière au milieu du tunnel. highway=trunk m'a l'air d'être une bonne idée, si ceci est accepté par la communauté italienne et que on décide de ne pas toucher à ça dans le futur.

Hi Jonathan

Why do you think it's strange to have an highway tag value that changes at boundary level ?

I usually try to map things as they are, so I think that the Italian part which is, for its characteristics, an "Autostrada", is correctly mapped as highway=motorway and not as trunk. I ignore the highway classification system in Switzerland, so I can't tell much... I see only that the tunnel is connected to a primary there.
The point is that the local countries rules can be different and it's in my opinion acceptable to have differences that become evident at boundary line. After all other tags like ref, for instance, change in other cross-boundary roads, but we accept this as normal.

Ciao

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#15 2019-05-10 19:32:23

Jonathan Masur
Member
Registered: 2016-04-23
Posts: 99

Re: Tunnel du Grand-Saint-Bernard -> edit war

IlBano wrote:

Hi Jonathan

Why do you think it's strange to have an highway tag value that changes at boundary level ?

I usually try to map things as they are, so I think that the Italian part which is, for its characteristics, an "Autostrada", is correctly mapped as highway=motorway and not as trunk. I ignore the highway classification system in Switzerland, so I can't tell much... I see only that the tunnel is connected to a primary there.
The point is that the local countries rules can be different and it's in my opinion acceptable to have differences that become evident at boundary line. After all other tags like ref, for instance, change in other cross-boundary roads, but we accept this as normal.

In the case of "normal" roads with a visible border cross, I fully agree. In this case the border is not visible in the middle of the tunnel but at its extremities, so changing road type in the middle of the tunnel because the border between countries is there 1000m above the tunnel is very strange.

Also I don't know the norms in Italy but normally when you think of "Autostrada" you think of at least 2 lanes per directions, with physically separated trafic among directions... (not just a painted line on the street). This is clearly not the case here.

I reviewed all "primary" roads in Switzerland which are marked with numbers, but unfortunately they're not marked at every intersection so there's room for ambiguity. In particular, the number "21" is not shown to point at either the tunnel or the mountain road. Since the swiss signalisaiton is ambigious anyway, the signalisation on Aoste's side can be a good starting point to settle down the issue. But there's constant changes unfortunately.

Ciao, salutations.

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#16 2019-05-11 16:49:30

luschi
Member
Registered: 2014-06-15
Posts: 64

Re: Tunnel du Grand-Saint-Bernard -> edit war

The tunnel is operated by a Italian and Swiss cooperation called SISEX SA.
Since 1st July 2010, SISEX SA is the sole operator, holding responsibility for the management, safety and maintenance of the tunnel.

And for this the highway should have the same key on the entire tunnel from toll_booth to toll_booth, because inside the tunnel it is not changing in type of construction and also not the operator like on regular border crossing streets.     
In Italy the T2 is indicated as a motorway(green street sing/or immage in Aosta) and in the Swiss it is indicated as a trunk(green car immage).This should mapped minimum as trunk, and the rest can be tagged as primary.

I think this should tagged as highway=trunk, because of the 1/1 lanes.

Is in the middle of the tunnel a street sing that show that you are now driving on a motorway/trunk?     
I dont think so, because of the SISEX operator.

If in the middle of the tunnel is no street sing, it should be tagged as trunk in the same way as the street near Aosta, because this have also the green motorway street sing.

Edit: fix link

Last edited by luschi (2019-07-06 14:07:09)

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#17 2019-05-15 19:17:56

Jonathan Masur
Member
Registered: 2016-04-23
Posts: 99

Re: Tunnel du Grand-Saint-Bernard -> edit war

luschi wrote:

The tunnel is operated by a Italian and Swiss cooperation called SISEX SA.
Since 1st July 2010, SISEX SA is the sole operator, holding responsibility for the management, safety and maintenance of the tunnel.

I doubt if this plays any role for OSM, i.e. "on the ground" rule.

I think this should tagged as highway=trunk, because of the 1/1 lanes.

I agree.

If in the middle of the tunnel is no street sing, it should be tagged as trunk in the same way as the street near Aosta, because this have also the green motorway street sing.

Once more, I fully agree.

Last edited by Jonathan Masur (2019-05-15 19:18:10)

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#18 2019-07-01 09:16:23

Andrea Musuruane
New Member
Registered: 2019-05-15
Posts: 1

Re: Tunnel du Grand-Saint-Bernard -> edit war

I'm really disappointed about how this issue has been handled.

It is my understanding that foreign (e.g. non Italian) mappers want to impose their view on how to map Italian roads.

They do not engage the Italian community (this forum is seldom read) but they pretend to act as part of the community.

The result is this changeset:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/71608986

The Italian part is clearly a motorway because it has the a motorway start sign:https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segnali_di_indicazione_nella_segnaletica_verticale_italiana#/media/File:Italian_traffic_signs_-_inizio_autostrada.svg

The Italian part of our alpine tunnels (eg. Traforo del Frejus and Traforo del Monte Bianco) are classified as motorway but foreign mappers continue to declassified them as trunk.

I do not pretend to understand how French and Swiss people classifies their street. But I'd like to have the same kind of respect.

Regards,

Andrea

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#19 2019-07-01 23:19:08

dieterdreist
Member
From: Roma, Italia
Registered: 2010-09-22
Posts: 1,219
Website

Re: Tunnel du Grand-Saint-Bernard -> edit war

I support Andreas view, in Italy, but also elsewhere, for a highway=motorway the requirement is a motorway sign, it doesn’t matter how much mountain is above you, when you cross the border you are in a different country, with different traffic rules, road classifications, signs, etc.

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#20 2019-07-02 18:35:43

Jonathan Masur
Member
Registered: 2016-04-23
Posts: 99

Re: Tunnel du Grand-Saint-Bernard -> edit war

Why do you complain ? You could have come up sooner with your ideas. And if you read what I said, I never tried to impose my views on a foreign country.

Jonathan Masur wrote:

I think it would be ugly to have the road tunnel change class in the middle. The Swiss part is not clearly marked so it's really up to the italians to decide.

Last edited by Jonathan Masur (2019-07-02 18:36:54)

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#21 2019-07-03 15:55:35

dieterdreist
Member
From: Roma, Italia
Registered: 2010-09-22
Posts: 1,219
Website

Re: Tunnel du Grand-Saint-Bernard -> edit war

the background was someone complaining on the Italian mailing list that the tunnel was recently set to trunk, while for Italians it is a motorway

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#22 2019-07-06 14:01:01

luschi
Member
Registered: 2014-06-15
Posts: 64

Re: Tunnel du Grand-Saint-Bernard -> edit war

@Andrea Musuruane
feel free to revert my changes.

I hope the mailing list find a better solution to tagg this trunk/motorway.

But then should be checked also this "motorway" near Aosta:
https://www.mapillary.com/app/?lat=45.7 … ocus=photo
https://www.mapillary.com/app/?lat=45.7 … 9230769231

Last edited by luschi (2019-07-06 14:07:54)

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