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#1 2019-03-02 15:31:25

ika-chan!
Member
Registered: 2016-10-23
Posts: 96

National road numbers

Sources:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/67443916
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/67060708
And Wiki edit history

It appears that JayCBR has started to moved the national road numbers from ref=* to nat_ref=*. I cannot find any community discussion relating to such a move (and is also why such discussions are best done on the OSM website and not on social media, so that we have a record of what went on).

I am not trying to be rude or anything, but I request an explanation about the latest decision to move national road numbers from ref=* to nat_ref=*.

-- ika-chan!


No one has to be 100% perfect at OpenStreetMap.

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#2 2019-04-01 18:06:48

JayCBR
Member
Registered: 2015-03-11
Posts: 219

Re: National road numbers

there are huge parts of the country where you will never see a single sign about national highway numbers, although okxe defines national highways, real life is a little more complicated and i think using ref is misleading (with nat_ref we can define the original route, without confusing map users). I believe we should use ref only for motorways

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#3 2019-04-03 04:16:47

nikospag
Member
From: Piraeus, Greece
Registered: 2012-03-08
Posts: 196
Website

Re: National road numbers

Έχουμε αποφασίσει οτι θα πάμε σύμφωνα με την ΟΚΧΕ και τα ΦΕΚ και όχι με τις πινακίδες (βασικά ποιες? πινακίδες στην Ελλάδα!!!). Συμφωνώ με τον ika-chan.
Δεν βλέπω κανένα λόγο χρησιμοποίησης του nat_ref στην Ελλάδα, εκτός αν μου υποδείξετε κάποιον.

Last edited by nikospag (2019-04-03 05:41:18)

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#4 2019-04-03 19:39:26

ika-chan!
Member
Registered: 2016-10-23
Posts: 96

Re: National road numbers

At this stage, I believe that the attempt to move ref=* to nat_ref=* was against general consensus, and done dishonestly to make it as if we agreed to the changes, which we never did.

The reason why the Greek road numbers belonged to ref=* is because it is in the law. Some motorway companies are also adding in the National Road numbers, like at https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/J-fkM2z1YfD_vMQtnrc79Q, https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/kTFVL5vhgvqsY18URhXtdg and https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/Qg4MBVXn_AK5dHPmemKIiw. I know it is slow, but it is something, and I already give Greece a lot of flexibility due to the recent and rapid transformation of the road network.

I hope nikospag can fill for me while I deal with a prolonged flu. Sorry about that.


No one has to be 100% perfect at OpenStreetMap.

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#5 2019-04-05 23:45:10

JayCBR
Member
Registered: 2015-03-11
Posts: 219

Re: National road numbers

In large parts of the there official and unofficial road numbers (especially with old/new national highways, i think the best thing is to use nat_ref for the original route (official) so we dont confuse map users. Just because ika chan likes to use ref so much, doesnt mean is the right way (it took a long time to get rid of provincial road numbers appearing everywhere). You may say nat_ref is not used very much, but there are not many countries with so problematic road numbering (except maybe our northern neighbours)

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#6 2019-04-06 05:25:19

nikospag
Member
From: Piraeus, Greece
Registered: 2012-03-08
Posts: 196
Website

Re: National road numbers

@JayCBR
Και πάλι δεν βλέπω την ανάγκη χρησιμοποίησης του nat_ref. Αν μου έδειχνες ένα παράδειγμα ίσως καταλάβαινα τι θέλεις να πεις.

Πάντως γενικά πιστεύω ότι αν προσθέσουμε κι άλλη κλάση ref στον χάρτη το πράγμα αρχίζει και μπερδεύεται.
Οι κλάσεις ref, old_ref, reg_ref και int_ref (για τις Exx) είναι υπεραρκετές για την Ελλάδα.

Όπου (και αν) υπάρχει ταυτόχρονα επίσημη και ανεπίσημη χάραξη για την ίδια διαδρομή, τότε η νεότερη έχει αντικαταστήσει την παλαιότερη, όποτε βάζουμε ref στην νεότερη και old_ref στην παλαιότερη. Δηλ δεν εξετάζουμε ποια είναι επίσημη και ποια ανεπίσημη.

Αν μου διαφεύγει κάτι ενημέρωσε με.

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#7 2019-04-15 22:33:51

nikospag
Member
From: Piraeus, Greece
Registered: 2012-03-08
Posts: 196
Website

Re: National road numbers

@JayCBR

JayCBR τρελάθηκες ξαφνικά? Τώρα είδα ότι πρόσθεσες την φράση "Νέα Εθνική Οδός" στο name σε 1300 ways σε εθνικές οδούς στην Ελλάδα.
πχ:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/27105451/history
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/627885360
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/15260049
κλπ

εδώ κάναμε τόσο κόπο να αφαιρέσουμε την φράση "Εθνική Οδός" από το name, και εσύ πας και προσθέτεις το "Νέα Εθνική Οδός"?
Και εσύ ψήφισες τότε για την αφαίρεση της φράσης "Εθνική Οδός" από το name.

Είχαμε αποφασίσει ότι θα βάζουμε στα names μόνο τους προορισμούς, για να γνωρίζει ο ταξιδιώτης πού βρίσκεται και πού πηγαίνει. Δεν φτιάχνουμε χάρτη για το G**gle maps, ούτε για τα ΕΛΤΑ. Ένας άλλος κύριος λόγος ήταν ότι οι μεγάλες ονομασίες με πολλές λέξεις "γεμίζουν" την οθόνη του GPS.
Αυτά είχαν αποφασιστεί από όλους μας. Δεν βλέπω τον λόγο να χρειάζεται να αποφασίσουμε ξανά.

ΥΓ. Έχει προγραμματιστεί mass edit για την αφαίρεση των nat_ref και "Νέα Εθνική Οδός", σύμφωνα με τις αποφάσεις της κοινότητας.

ΥΓ2 Μα καλά τι έπαθες? Εκτός από τα παραπάνω άλλαξες και τα ονόματα από την ονομαστική πτώση στην γενική.

Last edited by nikospag (2019-04-16 02:01:59)

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#8 2019-04-16 09:01:09

JayCBR
Member
Registered: 2015-03-11
Posts: 219

Re: National road numbers

Α καλά, επιλεκτικά κράζουμε..όταν ο mapfinder άλλαζε τα πάντα κανείς δεν μίλησε..όποτε άλλαζα τα όνοματα σύμφωνα με αυτά που είπαμε, τα έβρισκα αλλαγμένα την άλλη μέρα, πού ήσουν τότε?όποτε οποιοσδήποτε άλλος προσπαθεί να επιβληθεί δεν λέμε τίποτα, όταν ο ikachan ονοματίζει ΕΟ και ΕΠ όπως γουστάρει δεν λέμε τπτ.

Για συννενοήσου μαζί τους τώρα

Το name νέα εθνική οδός είναι μόνο για νέα τμήματα, όπου συνυπάρχει παλιό, για να μη χρησιμοποιούμε τον όρο Παλαιά Εθνική Οδός, για τμήματα που εξακολουθούν να είναι ΕΟ.

Last edited by JayCBR (2019-04-16 09:10:13)

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#9 2019-04-16 18:22:42

ika-chan!
Member
Registered: 2016-10-23
Posts: 96

Re: National road numbers

Unfortunately, I am starting to lose patience with JayCBR, because of the unilateral changes to the road numbers and name formats recently, but I do not want to argue further since my health is still poor.

I have decided to move away from the road number drama and focus on simpler tasks like adding missing roads in villages and hamlets, but at the end of the day the original reason for putting national and provincial road numbers in ref=* is because it is widely done that way around the world: I did not make that policy up, other people before me did, and I just went along with it as best as possible due to the fact that I was the first one to take provincial road numbers seriously.


No one has to be 100% perfect at OpenStreetMap.

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#10 2019-04-17 02:48:32

nikospag
Member
From: Piraeus, Greece
Registered: 2012-03-08
Posts: 196
Website

Re: National road numbers

@JayCBR
Δεν έχω την δυνατότητα να παρακολουθώ συνεχώς όλα τα edits όλων των χρηστών. Κάνω ελέγχους, αλλά δειγματοληπτικά. Εφόσον είδες κάτι στραβό από κάποιον θα μπορούσες να μου στείλεις πμ ή να το αναφέρεις σε κάποιο πόστ στο forum. (πάντα με λίνκ του edit history του σημείου).

JayCBR wrote:

Το name νέα εθνική οδός είναι μόνο για νέα τμήματα, όπου συνυπάρχει παλιό, για να μη χρησιμοποιούμε τον όρο Παλαιά Εθνική Οδός, για τμήματα που εξακολουθούν να είναι ΕΟ.

Όχι βέβαια. Το "Παλαιά Εθνική Οδός" θα μπαίνει στο παλιό τμήμα, και η κύρια Εθνική οδός θα παραμένει με ονομασίες προορισμών.
Δεν είναι λογικό να διακόπτεται η ονομασία (πχ Λάρισα-Κατερίνη) της κύριας Εθνικής οδού μόνο και μόνο επειδή συνυπάρχουν μερικά μικρά εναπομείναντα τμήματα της Παλιάς Εθνική οδού.
Δηλ. έχουμε την κύρια ("νέα") Εθνική οδό (με ονόματα προορισμών) και την Παλαιά Εθνική Οδό.
Ακόμη και η λογική του Openstreetmap το υποστηρίζει αυτό. Πχ υπάρχουν ref και old_ref, αλλά όχι new_ref.
Εξάλλου τα είπαμε και εδώ αυτά.

@Community
Μην χρησιμοποιείτε γενική πτώση στις ονομασίες των δρόμων (εξαιρούνται οι οδοί εντός αστικού ιστού πχ Κηφισίας κλπ)
Οι επίσημες ονομασίες του Εθνικού και Επαρχιακού δικτύου είναι στην ονομαστική πτώση (και υπάρχουν στο wiki μας).
Επίσης είναι χαζό να βρίσκεσαι στην Αθηνών-Κορίνθου και να λέει το GPS "επόμενος προορισμός Κορίνθου" αντί για "επόμενος προορισμός Κόρινθος".
Τα έχουμε συζητήσει αυτά.

@Map-Finder
Σε παρακαλώ αφαίρεσε τις αναφορές περί γενικής πτώσης σε αυτό το πόστ.
(Άσχετο, αλλά από από ότι θυμάμαι τα ουσιαστικά έχουν πτώση και τα επίθετα έχουν κλίση)

@ika-chan!

ika-chan! wrote:

Unfortunately, I am starting to lose patience with JayCBR, because of the unilateral changes to the road numbers and name formats recently,

I know about the name formats changes (that's what we are discussing above), but not about road numbers. Please post some example changeset links.

Last edited by nikospag (2019-05-01 05:27:03)

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#11 2019-04-17 10:44:01

ika-chan!
Member
Registered: 2016-10-23
Posts: 96

Re: National road numbers

If you mean that ref=* to nat_ref=* edits, then that is in the first post, plus:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/66711863
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/68521640

Furthermore, the editor doesn't leave a reasonable changeset comment.


No one has to be 100% perfect at OpenStreetMap.

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#12 2019-04-17 22:51:21

JayCBR
Member
Registered: 2015-03-11
Posts: 219

Re: National road numbers

where were you when mapfinder was changing everything??when i was reverting his changes every day??He is the one that wanted the names in genitive case..after a point i just went with it, since nobody cared..and now i am the one on the cross

i think we should vote again on national highway numbers and names

my opinion is that these national highway numbers are relics from the past and should not appear on maps, we could put them in nat_ref purely for documentation, i think we should only use ref for motorway numbers (well defined by law in 2015).

About new and old national highways:
-how should we name the road connecting Vevi with Arnissa (its still EO2, although there is a new road in the south), to name it old national highway is wrong
-EO65 (there is a new road connecting thessaloniki with Kilkis, but is not mentioned anywhere that the new road is EO65), should the original road be named old national highway?
-there are so many other examples where the original route is still the official route of the national highway and we should not name it old national highway

Last edited by JayCBR (2019-04-17 23:19:14)

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#13 2019-04-22 08:13:27

Map-Finder
Member
Registered: 2018-12-11
Posts: 136

Re: National road numbers

ika-chan! talked clearly about nat_ref & ref and not at all about genitive case.

Anyway, the numbers should be redefined.
The Greek authorities do not remove numbers (on signs) from old roads. You may still see signs with E65 on old highway, although there is the new E65 at Thessaly. Not even milestones are updated.
So we have 2 points to be resolved:
Should "ref" be removed initiated by us, or should we be synchronized with Greek authorities?
Should "ref" be written as "nat_ref" to old highways with same numbers? or even to a format like "old_ref"?

@JayCBR Σε παρακαλώ χρησιμοποίησε την βάση δεδομένων σε πρόγραμμα navigator (Garmin Navi ή maps.me) και πες μου ποια διατύπωση σου φαίνεται ορθή. Η ονομαστική ή η γενική;

Last edited by Map-Finder (2019-06-14 08:59:49)

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#14 2019-04-22 09:06:38

JayCBR
Member
Registered: 2015-03-11
Posts: 219

Re: National road numbers

i blame you for your attitude, for me personally genitive is better

Last edited by JayCBR (2019-05-28 12:37:18)

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#15 2019-04-22 12:41:10

nikospag
Member
From: Piraeus, Greece
Registered: 2012-03-08
Posts: 196
Website

Re: National road numbers

JayCBR wrote:

-how should we name the road connecting Vevi with Arnissa (its still EO2, although there is a new road in the south), to name it old national highway is wrong
-EO65 (there is a new road connecting thessaloniki with Kilkis, but is not mentioned anywhere that the new road is EO65), should the original road be named old national highway?

Θα απαντήσω στο πρώτο προς το παρόν το οποίο μελέτησα.
Το κομμάτι αυτό (Βεύη-Άρνισσα) δεν έχει αντικατασταθεί από το νότιο κομμάτι (που κάνει τον γύρο). Το νότιο κομμάτι εξυπηρετεί άλλο σκοπό.
Η ΕΟ2 εδώ παραμένει όπως είναι τώρα. Όμως δεν κατάλαβα για ποιό λόγο είναι trunk.(το νότιο κομμάτι)

Για την ΕΟ65:
Εδώ τα πράγματα φαίνονται λίγο μπερδεμένα αλλά δεν είναι.
Το κομμάτι της ΕΟ65 από Θεσσαλονίκη μέχρι Νέα Σάντα παραμένει το ίδιο. (το κομμάτι Λητή-Νέα Σάντα είναι εκτός παιχνιδιού και απορώ γιατί είναι primary).
Από Νέα Σάντα μέχρι Κρηστώνη έχει αντικατασταθεί από την νέα χάραξη, οπότε το ref ΕΟ65 πάει στην νέα χάραξη και το old_ref στην παλιά (με τις ανάλογες ονομασίες αντίστοιχα).
Ακόμη και το G**gle m@ps (που το βρίζω συνέχεια για τα λάθη του) το έχει σωστά.

Last edited by nikospag (2019-04-22 16:21:20)

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#16 2019-04-22 13:37:03

Map-Finder
Member
Registered: 2018-12-11
Posts: 136

Re: National road numbers

@JayCBR you blame me to ika-chan! ???

Last edited by Map-Finder (2019-06-14 09:01:47)

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#17 2019-04-22 18:12:56

JayCBR
Member
Registered: 2015-03-11
Posts: 219

Re: National road numbers

@map-finder γενικά λέω δεν συμφωνώ με πολλά που λες και κυρίως τον τρόπο που τα λες..αυτά

Last edited by JayCBR (2019-05-28 12:37:00)

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#18 2019-04-22 23:18:33

Map-Finder
Member
Registered: 2018-12-11
Posts: 136

Re: National road numbers

JayCBR wrote:

@map-finder γενικά λέω δεν συμφωνώ με πολλά που λες και κυρίως τον τρόπο που τα λες..αυτά

Πιστεύω πως τελικά θα συντονιστούμε και θα κάνουμε καλή ομάδα.

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#19 2019-06-10 21:04:57

dido3
Member
Registered: 2016-08-21
Posts: 17

Re: National road numbers

Hello,

I would stick to ref=* numbering for all roads that have been officially numbered by the state authorities.
nat_ref is far less frequently used and its semantics is not well documented. Indeed we have ~8 000 000 road segments tagged to ref and just ~100 000 tagged to nat_ref, or a ratio of 80:1.

In Bulgaria where I am from, we rely on a state-published document that lists all road numbers, their class and their from-by-to locations ( https://www.mrrb.bg/static/media/ups/ar … d79ace.doc ).

Best regards,
Dido

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#20 2019-06-10 23:53:47

nikospag
Member
From: Piraeus, Greece
Registered: 2012-03-08
Posts: 196
Website

Re: National road numbers

dido3 wrote:

Hello,

I would stick to ref=* numbering for all roads that have been officially numbered by the state authorities.
nat_ref is far less frequently used and its semantics is not well documented. Indeed we have ~8 000 000 road segments tagged to ref and just ~100 000 tagged to nat_ref, or a ratio of 80:1.

In Bulgaria where I am from, we rely on a state-published document that lists all road numbers, their class and their from-by-to locations ( https://www.mrrb.bg/static/media/ups/ar … d79ace.doc ).

Best regards,
Dido

I TOTALLY agree with that.

Last edited by nikospag (2019-06-11 00:12:16)

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#21 2019-06-11 13:23:33

JayCBR
Member
Registered: 2015-03-11
Posts: 219

Re: National road numbers

i understand ref is the main tag for road numbering, nobody doubts this

the main reason i proposed nat_ref is that this numbering scheme is vague, not specifying what happens with old and new sections coexisting, also bypassing cities is not supported by any official documents

the majority of signs on the ground are obsolete, wrong or they dont mention road numbers whatsoever

i think this numbering scheme does not serve any purpose, it only makes things complicated and confusing

thats my point of view

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#22 2019-06-12 15:27:38

Map-Finder
Member
Registered: 2018-12-11
Posts: 136

Re: National road numbers

Since numbering of the highways is universal, common for everyone either they live at Greece or abroad, the tags nat_ref, reg_ref  are useless.
Only in case, that there were not existence of prefix A, EO or ΕΠ this tag should be useful.
For example, ref:1 (that should mean A1), nat_ref:01 (that should mean EO1) and finally reg_ref:40 (that should mean ΕΠ40)
Only the creator of these tags should give as an answer on what he did exactly mean.

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#23 2019-06-12 15:45:22

JayCBR
Member
Registered: 2015-03-11
Posts: 219

Re: National road numbers

the only prefix is A for motorways and they are mentioned in the latest goverment decision in 2015

there are no prefixes ΕΟ and ΕΠ, they are just abbreviations of Εθνική Οδός (National Highway) and ΕΠαρχιακή οδός (provincial road)

we decided to use reg_ref just because these provincial road numbers are local (there are about 40 ΕΠ1) and we are also use network=GR:provincial with a number for each prefecture, also there no provincial road signs anywhere

there are also unofficial refs for new sections mentioned in okxe maps and road statistics documents, like X16 and ΕΟ1Β which should not be seen in openstreetmap as they are not appear in any signs

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#24 2019-06-12 22:58:48

Map-Finder
Member
Registered: 2018-12-11
Posts: 136

Re: National road numbers

Yes, you are right, the right word is abbreviation.

But does it make any useful difference the usage of reg_ref/nat_ref instead of single ref?
It is not even printed on the map, if I noticed well.
How is it used at other countries?

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#25 2019-06-13 09:44:24

dido3
Member
Registered: 2016-08-21
Posts: 17

Re: National road numbers

JayCBR wrote:

the only prefix is A for motorways and they are mentioned in the latest goverment decision in 2015

there are no prefixes ΕΟ and ΕΠ, they are just abbreviations of Εθνική Οδός (National Highway) and ΕΠαρχιακή οδός (provincial road)

we decided to use reg_ref just because these provincial road numbers are local (there are about 40 ΕΠ1) and we are also use network=GR:provincial with a number for each prefecture, also there no provincial road signs anywhere

there are also unofficial refs for new sections mentioned in okxe maps and road statistics documents, like X16 and ΕΟ1Β which should not be seen in openstreetmap as they are not appear in any signs

I make a custom GARMIN map of Greece out of the OSM data you provide, targeted at mountaineering and outdoor activities. It is just the ref road ID I take and put as a road name. If you omit the ΕΟ/ΕΠ abbreviations of Εθνική Οδός/ΕΠαρχιακή οδός, I will simply not display them, which is obviously wrong.

ΕΟ/ΕΠ have their semantics too and my opinion is that they should be present along with the numbers.

Greetings,
Dido

Last edited by dido3 (2019-06-13 09:46:00)

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