Originally I was under the assumption that an admin would wait a certain amount of time before deleting pages. Since that’s what Lyx always did. I’ve never seen an instance of a page being deleted the day of or immediately after a request was put up. I can agree that if pages are deleted that quickly discretion should be used though in what gets requested for deletion. Which is why I think good guidelines are necessary and also why I didn’t indiscriminately request pages be deleted in the first place. I was actually pretty choosy about it and reviewed all of them first. Despite accusations to the contrary.
If talk page discussions are out of the question with the delete template, the sentence saying so should be removed from it. A lot of this happened due to the misunderstanding that both deletion requests and deletion proposals required discussion if there was any objections to them.
Although most people were unwilling to discuss things even in cases where I used a deletion proposal instead and I still got them reverted. There was also no attempt to discuss things on my talk page after the reverts either. So I think its as much to do with certain people and their attitudes that its their way or highway, then its an issue about what particular template I used or what the template says. Which again is why I think guidelines are necessary.
I would agree with you on that if there wasn’t the head butting and bad attitudes by certain users from the start of this. Its clear some people don’t respect the admins opinions and expect everything to be done their way, if its realistic or not. So I think the guidelines are as much a necessary thing to keep ego’s out of this and to avoid similar conflict in the future as much anything else.
I’ve talked to more then a few ex users who were turned off from contributing to wiki because of this type of thing. Id like to see that not happen and it only stops by having rules. Otherwise, there will just be endless bickering, some people will abuse the revert system, and others will just leave because they don’t have the will to stick up for themselves. There’s plenty of instances where pages can and should be deleted anyway, like the examples Tigerfell provided. It would be ridiculous to expect an admin to have to jump in every time there’s a dispute about it.
I fully agree with that. It shouldn’t have been an issue in the first place.
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There was never any “broad consensus” {{delete}} shouldn’t be used and there was quit a lot of consensus that it was fine. I’m sick of repeating myself about it.
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EzekielT never used {{delete}} that I saw. If anything he did more to try and recover pages I requested be deleted then he did anything else. So its not fair to include him in that.
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I’ve said multiple times that I will stick to any guidelines we come up with. As long as they are fair to both sides (notice I’ve said both sides multiple times also and not just my side), involve consensus and discussion first, and are also followed by other users. That doesn’t mean I won’t potentially make a bad call once in a while and do a deletion proposal on a page that probably shouldn’t have one, but know ones perfect. Ultimately, I’m fine with some or most proposals ultimately not being deleted. I just want the decision to based on more then fake outrage or because someone who had a grudge reverted the request. That’s not only reflected in the deletion proposal I’ve had reverted that I left alone after because the reasoning for doing it was sound, along with the fact that the pages I have requested be deleted only make up a small portion of the ones I could have done it with or are out there. I’ve actually been a lot more conservative about then I get credit for, but fake outrage tends to override reason. So I understand why people would think otherwise.
Exactly. I’ve been dealing with them here and other places for awhile now and they tend to act the same way everywhere. There’s always an initially reaction to something, but then when it looks like they aren’t going to get their way or have to justify their actions they just disappear and go harass other people. Its a common tactic of bullies. 99% of the time people they harass will just give in and not raise it to the level I have. So its a pretty effective strategy most of the time, just not in this case. They don’t really have to say anything more about it anyway though. Since we already know there opinions. I’m sure they will pop up at some point again though.
The whole reason were even having this discussion in the first place is because I was “set off” enough to make it an issue. Otherwise, I would have been all apologetic and submissive like I’ve seen other people act. Which isn’t effective at all. So give me a little more credit. There is a method to my madness.
EzekielT is pretty middle of the road on this. As much as he seems to take my side, there’s been plenty of times where he hasn’t and has gone against me on things. So I wouldn’t clump us together.
I completely agree with that. I see Tigerfell as a neutral mediator and this as a negotiation as much as anything else. To that end, his guidelines are a little more strict then me and others would like, but loser then some other people would prefer. So we negotiate, refine things, and meet somewhere in the middle. At least that’s how I imagine it. He hasn’t taken a side on that though.
Exactly. People are making this out as if its way more black and white then it is. There wasn’t any guidelines or established practices one way or another anywhere though. A few people just thought it was “there way or highway” and tried to force everyone else to conform to there standards. Which is a big part of why the problem exists in the first place and can only be solved by having guidelines.
There’s plenty of benefit to deleting pages besides just freeing up space. As it is the proposal pages are hard to find and sift through, because a lot of them are irrelevant junk. Especially in the proposal categories, where they are listed completely nonsensically. It also causes problems with the search. Where the search prefers empty proposal pages and other irrelevant articles over the actual tag pages. Keeping empty proposal pages also requires people to maintain them and keep their categories up to date. Which isn’t done consistently. There’s more important things people should be spending their time on. That’s just a few things I can think of and only covers blank pages. There’s plenty of other instances where it would be of benefit to delete pages though.
Know one is insisting on anything. We are simply saying there are some cases where it would be beneficial to delete pages and also that there should be a discussion about it. Personally, I never once said pages should be deleted and I don’t really care in most of the cases if they aren’t. Its only specific instances that I take issue with, that only represent a small percentage of pages out there, and I also take issue with the approach people took who were against it. It doesn’t seem like anyone else here is advocating for the whole sale deletion of pages either. Know one has said as much. I’m not sure why there is even an insinuation we think otherwise or what is excessively bold about any of that. Like EzekielT said, there were no guidelines or established practices about any of this in the first place anyway.