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#1 2018-08-07 17:18:37

theel0ja
Member
From: Finland
Registered: 2017-11-15
Posts: 4
Website

Helsingin ilmakuviin lupa

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#2 2018-09-05 17:52:57

houtari
Member
From: Helsinki
Registered: 2017-02-15
Posts: 29

Re: Helsingin ilmakuviin lupa

Hello!

I noticed a background map in the OSM ID editor called "HRI ortophoto". I believe it has something to do with this discussion and the "HRI orthophoto" background map in ID editor is one of the so called capital area ortophotos that's been listed in the Helsinki Region Infoshare - open data catalogs. Perhaps even this one ... https://hri.fi/data/fi/dataset/paakaupu … okuva-2017 ?!

If this is the case then this didn't go quite according to the copyright regulations ... why ....

Firstly HRI isn't the owner of any of these ortophoto dataset as you can see by scrolling down to the section "Viittaustapa". I believe the attribution (Helsingin kaupunkiympäristön toimiala) Tanja mentioned (and Elias obviously took as a fact?) was only intented as an example so HRI hasn't thus right to give the permission Elias was looking for.

These CAPITAL AREA ortophotos are open by CCBY40-license so owner attribution is required as long as permission eg. like this one hasn't been issued by the copyright owner - in this case I believe it's Helsinki Region Environmental Services (HSY). Actually the ortophoto has been aquired as a joint acquisition by HSY, HSL, Helsinki, Espoo and other municipalities  so I'm not quite sure how this copyright permission process works in practice - but I believe that people at HSY can help you out ... avoindata@hsy.fi

Greetings Markku Huotari, GIS-specialist @ HSL

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#3 2018-09-06 11:57:23

hkstj
New Member
Registered: 2018-09-06
Posts: 1

Re: Helsingin ilmakuviin lupa

Hello:)

I reply shortly. Markku is right about the orthophoto. It's a joint acquisition by HSY, HSL, Helsinki, Espoo and other municipalities so the right copyright would be Pääkaupunkiseudun ortoilmakuva (C) Espoon, Helsingin ja Vantaan kaupungit, Kirkkonummen ja Nurmijärven kunnat sekä HSL ja HSY, 2017. And also the name "HRI Orthophoto" is bit misleading, because HRI don't own the data.


Henna-Kaisa Stjernberg @HSY, GIS-specialist

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#4 2018-09-07 13:11:11

Stereo
Member
Registered: 2011-04-22
Posts: 36

Re: Helsingin ilmakuviin lupa

Hi Henna-Kaisa and Markku!

I've replied at https://github.com/osmlab/editor-layer- … -419321409 but will also read replies here if that's more convenient for you.

Guillaume

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#5 2018-09-07 20:48:05

houtari
Member
From: Helsinki
Registered: 2017-02-15
Posts: 29

Re: Helsingin ilmakuviin lupa

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#6 2018-09-10 13:31:10

Tanja_OSM
New Member
Registered: 2018-09-10
Posts: 2

Re: Helsingin ilmakuviin lupa

Thanks Markku Huotari for telling us about this discussion because it seems obvious that there is a need to clarify the role of the HRI and the license used in the datasets released via the HRI service.

At the HRI service you can find the metadata regarding those data sets which have been released as open data by certain public authorities in the Helsinki Metropolitan Area. These public authorities have released their data with Creative Commons BY 4.0 license (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/) which means that you can use the data as you will but you have to mention the original data source. This is an only condition but absolute one. I didn´t know that in the OSM platform this BY-condition will be ignored and changed to be something else - and as you can understand this is not allowed to do without getting a separate permit from the data owner. I thought that the original data source will be included at OMS but just learnt that it is not.

This means that those open orthophotos downloaded via the HRI service and published at the OSM platform without separate permits should be removed ("Stereo", could you do this?). However it is important to have discussion around these licenses and consider the separate permissions if possible. We will organize the Helsinki Loves Developers meetup around OSM and open GIS data on Thursday 4th October – welcome to continue this discussion there – more information here https://www.facebook.com/events/738208189845650/.

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#7 2018-09-14 09:44:29

NKA
Member
From: Norway
Registered: 2016-11-20
Posts: 39
Website

Re: Helsingin ilmakuviin lupa

Tanja_OSM: Thank you for your feedback to this discussion. Perhaps there is a misunderstanding:

  • OSM does not download the orthophotos and then publish them, and certainly not under a different license. OSM merely keeps a list of URLs and other metadata of various imagery services so that they may be displayed in our map editors, such as JOSM and iD. When an individual user is browsing the imagery from the Helsinki region in one of the OSM editors, that imagery is fetched directly from the WMS service to the user, still under the original CC-BY 4.0 license and nothing else.

  • It is not correct the that BY condition is ignored. The attribution text is displayed in the corner of the screen/window whenever the orthophotos are browsed in the editors. Following input from houtari, this text has been updated to read "© Espoon, Helsingin ja Vantaan kaupungit, Kirkkonummen ja Nurmijärven kunnat sekä HSL ja HSY" (pending next release of the iD editor, likely in September; already live in JOSM and other editors). The name of the imagery has also been changed from "HRI orthophoto" to "Helsinki region orthophoto"/"Pääkaupunkiseudun ortoilmakuva" to avoid confusion about who is the owner.

  • OSM users will likely edit the map in OSM based on what they see on the orthophotos, for example creating a new building in OSM by tracing it from the imagery. Those objects are licensed from OSM under the ODbL license. The orthophotos will have been the source (or one of the sources) of these objects, so attribution for that is given by OSM on the landing page for Contributors.  This is where attribution is given for all our external contributors, including many other sources with a CC-BY 4.0 license.

Do let us know if you think the wording should be different for the attribution texts.

Thank you for facilitating further discussions with the local OSM community in October and for helping with separate permissions if needed.

Given this clarification, do you still think the orthophotos should be removed now, pending discussions in October?

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#8 2018-09-24 11:57:19

Tanja_OSM
New Member
Registered: 2018-09-10
Posts: 2

Re: Helsingin ilmakuviin lupa

In my understanding it is ok to keep those orthophotos at the OMS as long as the original data source is mentioned according to the CC BY license in each data layer. In addition the name of the layer should also be correct. We can continue this discussion at the Helsinki Loves Developer & OMS developer meetup on 4th Oct 2018 at Laituri – see you there! smile

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#9 2018-10-18 13:12:08

houtari
Member
From: Helsinki
Registered: 2017-02-15
Posts: 29

Re: Helsingin ilmakuviin lupa

The name & attribution of the ortophoto should be changed. It's still wrong at least in ID editor. Furthermore no one has yet asked the true copyright owners this question "We would like to get your confirmation that these datasets may be used by OpenStreetMap". I think that's another task that should be dealt with ASAP. I'll try to make sure it gets done.

btw. there might be some other ortophotos that the OSM community might be interested in eg. https://hri.fi/data/dataset/helsingin-ortokuva-2018 covers only Helsinki but has a resolution of 5cm whereas this "HRI-ortophoto" had a resolution of 20cm.

Last edited by houtari (2018-10-18 13:16:26)

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