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#1 2018-06-11 13:07:00

westnordost
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From: Hamburg
Registered: 2013-07-13
Posts: 411

Max speed for coaches

So, there are transit buses and there are coaches.
The former are buses used in public transport within a town, while coaches are buses used for inter-city travel (i.e. flixBus). 

Certain countries define different default speed limits for buses than for coaches, for example, Germany does (Source).

For buses, it is possible to define the max speed via maxspeed:bus=80.

But for coaches, I did not find a tag. maxspeed:coach is not used. Or is maxspeed:tourist_bus the tag that should be used for coaches? (If yes, I shall document that to avoid confusion in the future).

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#2 2018-06-11 14:17:29

hadw
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Registered: 2014-09-02
Posts: 1,081

Re: Max speed for coaches

In the UK, a coach isn't defined in terms of distance, but rather in terms of mass (>7500 kg) and maximum speed (> 60mph).

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#3 2018-06-11 16:53:01

westnordost
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From: Hamburg
Registered: 2013-07-13
Posts: 411

Re: Max speed for coaches

Source?

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#4 2018-06-11 17:04:53

hadw
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Registered: 2014-09-02
Posts: 1,081

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#5 2018-06-11 19:36:23

westnordost
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From: Hamburg
Registered: 2013-07-13
Posts: 411

Re: Max speed for coaches

Okay, so your point is that since "coach" is defined in UK law already as "a heavy bus", maxspeed:coach=* shouldn't be used because it can lead to misunderstandings as the OSM definition of "coach" (a travel-bus, like wikipedia definition) collides with the common understanding for British people?

I'd say that any kind of vehicle that is mentioned in a code of laws is defined some way, and I am absolutely certain that the exact definition always differs in one way or the other from country to country. As OSM is an international project, the tags used in OSM are always just a projection from the national definitions. In other words, they always differ if you look closely enough.
While in British law, coaches are defined as "heavy buses", for example the German equivalent (never called by name) are buses "that have travel seats with seat belts, built for the transport of seated passengers". But whatever the definition in law, I think we all have a common understanding what a coach is (see wikipedia). So, this is not a problem. Also, we can reasonably assume that car makers build their vehicle types so that they are allowed as this vehicle type not only in UK but i.e. all over Europe.

So, anyway, back to the initial question: Is tourist_bus supposed to be the same as a coach, as it is defined in the wikipedia?

Last edited by westnordost (2018-06-11 19:38:11)

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#6 2018-06-11 19:44:37

westnordost
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From: Hamburg
Registered: 2013-07-13
Posts: 411

Re: Max speed for coaches

I looked at the spread of tourist_bus via taginfo and overpass, it looks like there no instance where it is used that makes sense. Most usage is here:
http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/zv5

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#7 2018-06-11 21:27:14

alan_gr
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Registered: 2017-11-27
Posts: 43

Re: Max speed for coaches

I see that the https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:tourist_bus refers to a discussion on the tagging mailing list in 2011 - maybe if you find that discussion it would throw some light on what was intended by tourist_bus. It seems to be used as an access key for bus or coach vehicles taking passengers on tours, i.e. not operating as scheduled public transport. So a coach on a scheduled intercity route would presumably not be a tourist_bus, but I suppose would be subject to the "coach" speed limits - which suggests this is not the tag you need.

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#8 2018-06-11 21:55:50

westnordost
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From: Hamburg
Registered: 2013-07-13
Posts: 411

Re: Max speed for coaches

I looked for it, but did not find anything now (only from 2014, but the tag was documented earlier). Okay, then what I will do is to document "coach" as a subcategory for "bus" and describe what the usual understanding of it is (seats with seatbelts, usually baggage storage below, usually used for travels between cities and so on)

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#9 2018-06-12 10:26:24

hadw
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Registered: 2014-09-02
Posts: 1,081

Re: Max speed for coaches

That definition is of no use for specifying speed limits.  Speed limits apply to the legal definition of coach not to any general public concept of one.

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#10 2018-06-12 11:34:56

SK53
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Registered: 2009-01-11
Posts: 471

Re: Max speed for coaches

The 7.5 t limit is not what distinguishes a coach from a bus. Note in the document the proviso "except designed for urban use".

The double-decker buses running on my local route are Alexander Dennis Enviro's (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander … _Enviro400) which according to wikipedia weight 18 tonnes. Boris buses weigh around 12.tonnes. I believe the original Routemaster was unusual for an urban bus in coming under the 7.5 t (or perhaps 8 tons pre metric) and thus in the past could be driven privately with an ordinary driving licence.

Quite beside legal definitions, we should use the 'duck test' on OSM. The main obvious differences between coaches & buses are as follows:

Buses:

* Standing passengers regularly assumed (I guess that in some cases coaches may take standing passengers, but this is not usual, and may not be legal).
* Level access with no steps. Older buses may not match this criterion, but the vast majority of buses used as PSVs will have level access for wheelchairs and the ability to 'kneel'.
* Very limited luggage space.
* No seat belts fitted.

Coaches:

* No regular standing passengers.
* Wheelchair access if available via a lift not roll-on access.
* Extensive luggage space, usually under the floor of the passenger compartment
* Individual seats with armrests reflecting a generally higher level of fittings. Seats may be reclinable too.
* Often with additional facilities: on-board toilet, USB charging points, and on long-distance coaches at seat entertainment systems.
* A luggage rack for small items above the seats

Probably in the UK the most important distinction is length (see https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits) and I presume that the typical bus is under 12m and the typical coach is over 12m (see for instance this wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caetano_Levante).

I am no means an expert on this area so there may be more info to be gleaned, but it looks to me on the basis of the above that the distinction really needs to be a conditional weight tag related to maxspeed:psv for the UK.

A couple of local express services, notably the Nottingham-Derby Red Arrow are operated by coaches (Plaxton Elite): I probably could find out how fast they go on the dual carriageway :-)

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#11 2018-06-12 11:38:01

westnordost
Member
From: Hamburg
Registered: 2013-07-13
Posts: 411

Re: Max speed for coaches

That definition is of no use for specifying speed limits.

It is of use. Did you even read my earlier post?

It is impossible to put the exact legal definitions of vehicle classes into OSM because if we tried to map the exact legal definitions to OSM, we could not work with any already defined vehicle classes like hgv, bus, minibus, motorhome, goods, etc. As I said, it is and only ever can be a projection, not a 1:1 mapping. You have this projection anywhere where you bring together the legislation of different countries, e.g. in this list in the wikipedia you will find a column that includes trucks, even though the exact definitions of what constitutes a truck are different in each country.

As an exercise, try to map the German definition of a bus that may drive 100 into OSM maxspeed syntax to understand what I mean.
Here is machine-translated legal text: Road traffic regulations (StVO) § 18 Motor roads and motorways (5).3

Last edited by westnordost (2018-06-12 11:41:12)

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#12 2018-06-12 14:58:56

hadw
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Registered: 2014-09-02
Posts: 1,081

Re: Max speed for coaches

SK53: The document says both > 7.5 T MGM and capable of more the 60mph.  The Boris buses are I assume, not designed for > 60 mph!

westnordost: Speed limit signs are what we are talking about, and they apply to the local legal definition, not the popular concept.

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#13 2018-06-12 18:29:19

westnordost
Member
From: Hamburg
Registered: 2013-07-13
Posts: 411

Re: Max speed for coaches

So, your proposal is to ditch every vehicle class that is defined because the exact legal definitions in different countries vary, and replace it with what?

Note, if the definition in UK law for coaches is that of buses with a weight of 7.5 tonnes or more, the maxspeed rule in OSM needs to be maxspeed:bus=60 @ (weight >7.5) of course, not maxspeed:coach=60, because the definition in OSM wiki of a coach differs from that in UK law. It makes sense to document that as well when documenting coach in the wiki

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#14 2018-06-12 18:31:29

westnordost
Member
From: Hamburg
Registered: 2013-07-13
Posts: 411

Re: Max speed for coaches

It stands to be determined though if coaches should be defined as a subcategory of buses (which in turn is a subcategory of psv) or be on the top level.

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#15 2018-06-12 18:39:32

hadw
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Registered: 2014-09-02
Posts: 1,081

Re: Max speed for coaches

I propose that vehicle classes have the meaning they have in the country being mapped, much the same as highway=tertiary has a specific meaning (C roads) in the UK.

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#16 2018-06-12 22:36:27

westnordost
Member
From: Hamburg
Registered: 2013-07-13
Posts: 411

Re: Max speed for coaches

Hmm, right, that might be an option. Or is this the default for vehicle classes anyway already?
Anyway, so more or less the definition from SK53 can be taken (adding some "usually" and "in many countries") and add that in the UK, a coach is defined as XYZ. Extend the article later for more countries, if necessary.

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#17 2018-06-13 00:29:18

dieterdreist
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From: Roma, Italia
Registered: 2010-09-22
Posts: 1,247
Website

Re: Max speed for coaches

I cannot say anything about coaches in the UK, but was asked by someone on this thread about the tourist_bus vehicle class on the access page. The wording is a literal translation of a sign I found here: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/10030 … 60/11.7783
The term used on the sign (free form extension sign) was tourist bus which isn’t a category in Italy according to the highway code. Given that there are only 2 types of busses in the wiki, bus for busses operating as public transport vehicle, and tourist_bus, I would expect the latter to describe coaches.
I would not look at weight ratings but rather on the maximum capacity of the vehicle: if it is intended to transport more than 8 people it is a bus.

Last edited by dieterdreist (2018-06-13 00:30:07)

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#18 2018-06-13 00:36:41

westnordost
Member
From: Hamburg
Registered: 2013-07-13
Posts: 411

Re: Max speed for coaches

Wikipedia links
Coach (en) = Reisebus (de) = Pullman turistico (it)

Is this what you saw on the sign? If yes, I think the proper English word for that type of bus (coach) would be better to use than a literal translation from Italian because in English I would say that a tourist bus is something else (a bus for tourists, perhaps a subcategory of coaches, or sightseeing buses)

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#19 2018-06-14 17:59:37

westnordost
Member
From: Hamburg
Registered: 2013-07-13
Posts: 411

Re: Max speed for coaches

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#20 2018-09-17 23:22:58

dieterdreist
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From: Roma, Italia
Registered: 2010-09-22
Posts: 1,247
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Re: Max speed for coaches

westnordost wrote:

You should not add basically unused tags on the access summary page (map features, these are features that are well established and defined). The right way to do it is create a proposal and see what the community says.

In general, we certainly need to express at least 2 different things in the context of busses: special permissions for buses acting as public service vehicle (can use bus lanes, etc.), i.e. the key "bus", and restrictions for vehicles falling into the bus vehicle class (the key tourist_bus). Even if you argue that tourist_bus does not include psv buses that do not act as a psv, it is still clear that "coach" is a synonym of "tourist_bus".

In other words, to describe the legal situation in Germany, Italy and likely elsewhere we need this: (tourist_bus, in German Kraftomnibus, in English maybe "motorbus"?)
Sinnbild_Kraftomnibus.svgZeichen_257-54_-_Verbot_f%C3%BCr_Kraftomnibusse%2C_StVO_2017.svg
And this: (bus)
Zeichen_245_-_Bussonderfahrstreifen%2C_StVO_2013.svg

Last edited by dieterdreist (2018-09-18 00:17:57)

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#21 2018-09-18 00:32:29

westnordost
Member
From: Hamburg
Registered: 2013-07-13
Posts: 411

Re: Max speed for coaches

Not sure if I can follow you. You mean to have a bus category that is not sorted below psv?

So then there are actually two possibilities how one could categorize vehicles:
1. by usage (psv > bus)
2. by vehicle construction type ( bus > coach/tourist_bus but neither bus nor tourist_bus is necessarily a psv)

Last edited by westnordost (2018-09-18 00:34:36)

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#22 2018-09-23 15:09:08

multimodaal
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From: zuidelijk Rijnland
Registered: 2015-11-10
Posts: 615
Website

Re: Max speed for coaches

Hi.
The current situation is yet another example where the classification of vehicle-types in OSM is contradictory to both itself and international conventions.

I support the point of westnordost that we have to make a distinction between construction and use.
And given both the practical situation and commonly adopted international conventions (national legislations are variations within these frameworks) a hierarchy can be made:

-First and foremost the classification is defined by the construction, this defines in which category a vehicle is categorised for admission on the road (in UN-ECE: classes M for vehicles constructed to carry passengers; classes N for vehicles constructed to carry goods).

Once on the road, a vehicle designed to carry passengers (class M in UN-ECE) can generally be used in different ways: both in public transport and private transport, mostly without altering the construction and legal registration. 
There are no different vehicle classes within UN-ECE based on whether it is designed for public or private service, the subclasses are based on number of seats (M1 less then 9; M2/3  more then 9) and weight: (M3 >5t).
See  for example  (UN ECE has 56 member countries, not only in Europe, but also US and Russia;  ; the exact numbers for seats / weight in other countries may vary, but the principles are generally the same )

The opposite is much harder however: if a  vehicle constructed  to carry goods was to be used for carrying passengers, it generally can not be used for carrying passengers without reconstruction and legal re-admission. The construction type of a vehicle also mainly define which type of drivers license is needed to operate it.

Just like the common international conventions for vehicle admissions, also the conventions for traffic regulations (Vienna convention) does not make an a priori difference between in traffic signs for the usage of buses (it does however n road markings for lanes)
In national traffic legislations (how to behave on the road with a given vehicle) however, governments can choose to make further distinctions in traffic signs when allowed in such conventions, as quoted above for Germany. 

Also in the Netherlands traffic legislation a difference is made, both in road markings and traffic signs, allowing or prohibiting access for:
-either all busses ("Autobus" performing either public or private transport at that moment: sign C7a; C7b, like second picture in the post form @dieterdriest)  
-or only busses performing public transport at that moment (sign F13) 


From this international use a general hierarchy can be derived:

"Bus"
(for ALL busses;  motor_vehicles constructed to carry more passengers more than a regular passenger car as defined in national legislation)
To be divided in:
--Busses in use for public transport 
--Busses in use for private transport  

But when you try to relate this to the main access-scheme in you get lost on the woods:
there seems to be no general term for all busses in OSM, since the general key:bus is  -counter intuitively- already more specifically defined as "a heavy bus acting as a public service vehicle" .

And furthermore to make it more confusing the wiki page for key:bus is just a redirect to key PSV, which might suggest a much more synonumus relation than is actually the case

Within the construction categories there now is both tourist_bus and coach, and it is not clear whether one is a subclass of another (although coach seems a more general term to me, since not all coaches transport tourists).

So if you would like to tag that a road is closed to all busses; you would have to tag all of

bus=no
tourist_bus=no
coach=no

?

It is probably too late and too much work to change the OSM definition of key:bus to the much more commonly understandable wider scope of all busses, but a clear general term could still be introduced. 
And at least the hierarchy between key:coach and key:tourist_bus could be made explicit on the main access-page: is tourist_bus a sub-class of coach?

If that is the case, a road closed for all busses would need one tag less (no more tourist_bus)  

Best regards

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#23 2018-09-23 16:06:29

westnordost
Member
From: Hamburg
Registered: 2013-07-13
Posts: 411

Re: Max speed for coaches

I too see tourist_bus rather on the side of "usage"-category and coach on the side of "construction"-category. Though, I have not seen PSV coaches and tourist_bus 'ses that are not coaches.
Except if this classifies as a tourist bus.

I remember editing the access page to put tourist_bus as subcategory of coach, but it was reverted in this changeset. I confronted the user about the revert but I do not have the energy to start an edit war.
See also recent discussion on Key:coach talk page I had with dieterdreist, the "inventor" of the tourist_bus access tag.

Maybe the way to get this over with is to do as both Nop and dieterdreist demanded and create a proposal with a voting. I find myself too busy to go through that process though atm (because I never did this before as well). If you are interested in setting this straight as well, I'd be more than happy to see if someone else created such a proposal.

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#24 2018-09-23 21:59:11

dieterdreist
Member
From: Roma, Italia
Registered: 2010-09-22
Posts: 1,247
Website

Re: Max speed for coaches

multimodaal wrote:

Within the construction categories there now is both tourist_bus and coach, and it is not clear whether one is a subclass of another (although coach seems a more general term to me, since not all coaches transport tourists).


from what I read in the wiki „coach“ is intended to describe „legal access for coaches“ and defines coaches as a specific vehicle type (no room for standing passengers, etc.), in other words a more specific  meaning than „tourist_bus“ (all buses not acting as public service vehicle). This is on a page that appeared some months ago out of nowhere https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Spe … /Key:coach
while there is also documentation for the same key in the ptv2 proposal: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Pro … 22coach%22

“Coach” meaning specifically coach is not a vehicle class that I need to describe the effects of German or Italian traffic signs, but maybe somewhere they are needed (there are special rules for coaches that don’t apply generally but only on prescription).

I agree that the term “tourist bus” is not chosen very well to mean generic bus, if we were to change names, I would propose “motorbus” for generic buses (vehicle class)

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