When to use track roads or tertiary roads etc. Newfoundland, Canada

Road maintenance is hard to verify, because it may happen sporadically. BTW, many of the industry roads in Alberta are used in winter, and maintained (plowed) as needed. But many more aren’t. Can we expect OSM to provide a “passability” guarantee?

ATV tracks are a side issue, and I haven’t managed to find good guidance for that. (ATV tracks are narrow, typically too narrow for a pickup truck.) I’ve mapped some as path, others as track, but neither seems quite right.

(I have to leave the conversation for a few days, sorry.)

Well, it seems there is no universal answer so for Newfoundland how does this sound for a starting point.

For forest resource roads,

Unmaintained Track Roads = Dead ends (and small groups of roads with one way in) that lead to only 2 cabins or less and/or are only one lane on all or parts of the road, this will still be the majority of Resource Roads in Newfoundland. Tracks roads are basically seasonal in nature and do not need to be tagged as such.

Residential = Dead Ends (and small groups of roads with one way in) with multiple good gravel roads and 3 or more cabins mostly 2 lane, these areas are usually easy to spot as they are pretty well developed. Tag as seasonal = Yes or spring/summer/autumn or no_snow (not sure what effect each has on navigation so experimenting with the three)

Minor/Unclassified Road = will be good two lane gravel roads that link the residential areas. Mark as track sections where bridges are washed out. Tag as seasonal = Yes or spring/summer/autumn or no_snow (not sure what effect each has on navigation so experimenting with the three)

Tertiary = Very rare usage for longer lengths that can connect multiple unclassified roads or well developed cabin areas. Should not be Tertiary if the bridges are not passable. Tag as seasonal = Yes or spring/summer/autumn or no_snow (not sure what effect each has on navigation so experimenting with the three)

Secondary Road and Above = Are highways and shouldn’t be used for unpaved gravel forest resource roads. Not to be confused with actual gravel highways that connect actual Municipalities, towns, cities etc.

Remember we do not map to the renderer or in other words we do not upgrade roads to make them visible as the scale is zoomed out on the map.

My tagging scheme in use is clearly laid out on my profile page. I maintain that highway=track does not accurately describe the unpaved road network in Newfoundland. The majority of these roads have constructed foundations that support vehicle traffic, and OSM has tags that can describe seasonal conditions and surface conditions of the roads.

I personally add hundreds of kilometres of these roads to OSM and have personally driven on many of them. I appreciate the help of any mapper to update the condition tags of these roads, as these conditions do change over time, but the presence of the road does not.

I’m not sure what that means.

I’ve been tagging the majority of forest resource roads as tracks. You basically do not mark any forest resource roads as tracks.

I’ve put up a compromise in that as it does not do much good if the two of us or others simply keep reverting each others edits.

So from the looks of this you are not willing to change anything about tagging forest resource roads.

You list that you use the Canadian guidelines which state
“A highway=track is roads for agricultural use, gravel roads in the forest etc.; usually unpaved/unsealed but may occasionally apply to paved tracks as well.”

You have redefined track on your profile to
“Track = road only passable by all terrain vehicles like quads or dirt bikes, or on foot. Not wide enough or safe enough for motorcar traffic.”

Your definition doesn’t come close to the Canadian Guideline definition. Track roads can certainly be safe enough for cars to drive on.

I use my profile page to describe the reasoning behind my tagging, not to redefine the wiki.

In regards to highway=track and highway=unclassified, I have changed the wording on my profile page to exactly match the wording used on the Canadian Tagging Guideline page at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Canadian_tagging_guidelines

“The easiest way to remember this one is for a tractor, as it would have 2 ruts, where a tractor would be able to use it, or an ATV/Horseback/mountain bike/hiking would be able to use these roads.”

A piece of heavy equipment driving through an area with no prepared roadbed will leave two ruts. This describes a track, and there are indeed many instances of this type of road. Check out this spot on the map (using Bing as the background) to see an example of a Track next to a Minor Road. https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?editor=potlatch2#map=18/48.98380/-55.37758

Well that is a start but you have not changed your profile “to exactly match the wording used on the Canadian Tagging Guideline” You picked out one sentence out of

“A highway=track is roads for agricultural use, gravel roads in the forest etc.; usually unpaved/unsealed but may occasionally apply to paved tracks as well. If a track is used for recreational purposes, it should be tagged as leisure=track.
Example: Small roads in parks, dirt trails in fields, etc. Speed limits are probably 30 km/h or less; roads may be maintained privately.
Recommendation: The easiest way to remember this one is for a tractor, as it would have 2 ruts, where a tractor would be able to use it, or an ATV/Horseback/mountain bike/hiking would be able to use these roads.”

Your definition would not include paved tracks for example. It would not include the small roads in parks specifically mentioned. A large percent of these roads were tagged as secondary highways, and the offshoot skidder trails were marked as good roads. I don’t know if that was your work but it clearly does not describe roads that a barely fit to drive a vehicle on.

The suggestion I placed above would keep tracks to 1 lane forest roads. They would be bumped up to residential or unclassified if they are two lanes and show signs of some maintenance (a good sign would be having a few cabins built on them). All forest resource roads have a constructed foundation. They were designed and built by the forestry or mining industries to support huge vehicles and transport trucks needed. The question is have they been maintained since or are they abandoned and degrading over time.

I think the missing link in this discussion is tracktype=*. The “easiest way to remember…” examples in the Canadian Tagging Guidelines are more narrow than they should be and don’t accurately represent the highway=track tag. Tracks can be anywhere on a spectrum from the two-ruts-in-the-ground all the way up to a paved road. The tracktype key allows for a more specific definition of the condition and usability of the track. Out here in BC, I’ve used highway=track extensively for logging roads, specifying the tracktype if possible. For the "main"s (ie. the most major logging roads), I generally use highway=unclassified.

I think that is the way it should be done as well, but I’can’t compete with mappers who are reclassifying everything out there as tertiary or secondary highways for forest roads. Also find that for the worst paths basically hardly suitable for walking have been classified as Cycle Path. The highway=cycleway tag indicates a separate way for the use of cyclists.

The cycle path issue may relate to the mountain bike trails thread, where, it seems to me, that a small clique is claiming a sort of ownership on general woodland paths.

However, OSM does determine whether cycle=yes should be set based on the legal position, on the suitability. We sometimes get people wanting to set cycle=no on major roads, because they think they are too dangerous, but that is also wrong.

The cycle=yes is a separate issue, and I suspect some mappers automatically tag trails cycle=yes so they render prominently in blue on OpenCycleMap. Is it “tagging for the renderer” if you’re adding a tag that’s technically true, even if somewhat absurd? (When it’s legal to ride a bike on a scree slope, for example.) Don’t answer that; I’d rather not drag this discussion away from the main topic.

I’d love to arrive at a clear definition of the line between unclassified and track, also between track and path especially if it resolves where quad trails belong. Until then, different mappers’ areas are going to keep being mapped differently. (How on earth does a decision get made and the wiki get updated?)

You are never going to get absolute consistency in a crowd sourced map with no central moderation.

The distinction between unclassified and track would be fairly clear in the UK, but may well not be in other countries.

What I do in rural Montana: If it is to narrow for a car it is a path, otherwise if the way is used for agricultural or forestry traffic only it is a track. Access to a single farm or residence would be highway=service, roads connecting settlements would be unclassified or higher. Of course it might make sense to use a different scheme if the general distribution of highway types in an area is different. In a country that has no paved roads it would certainly make sense to have the most important roads as primary even if they are unpaved, however as soon as there is a notable presence of paved roads I would not do that. In Montana I will not tag an unpaved road anything higher than tertiary.

As the original poster directed my recent messages to him back to this thread, I figured I would post the update here.

My point of view is that unpaved throughfares should be tagged as tertiary, the regular unpaved road network that can be navigated by two wheel drive motor vehicles be tagged as unclassified, roads that can only be navigated by four wheel drive or ATV traffic or consist of two ruts be tagged as track, and access roads to buildings or quarries be tagged service. When I add new roads, this is the method I try to follow.

Note: The following comments may be considered off-topic.

Unfortunately, the original poster’s current practice seems to be to wait for me to add the road network in an area, then follow my additions around the map and change every tertiary, unclassified, and service road to highway=track, and to delete any highway=service driveway that I add. That erases all of the work I put into differentiating and classifying the roads when I add them to the map.

To give the benefit of the doubt, I even tried mapping far from the areas I usually map. I drove the roads in a two wheel drive car, camped in the area, used GPS, and tagged the main road as type unclassified, with adjoining roads leading to quarries as type service. The poster tracked my changes and changed the road network to all highway=track.

If you took every road in a city and made them all highway=residential, you might not technically be wrong, but would that be considered vandalism?

I’m from Gander and have lived, hunted and fished in these areas and roads for over 50 years(longer than you). I have also been mapping longer than you for Google Maps and Open Street Map. I Map across Newfoundland on places I live and travel to, and do not bother to look at who made an edit but rather how does it fit into the OSM’s overall view.

You are upgrading forest resource roads to the level of highways and city roads when they are not.

You refused to try and work out a compromise but instead you quotes parts of of sentences from multiple definitions to confirm your view as if you are a lawyer.

I have no problem working things out in a forum like this to get a general guideline from the community on the direction edits should go.

But again other than editing around the Gander Bay Loop and Gander river areas which seem to be where you concentrate your efforts as well, I don’t look at who made an edit just its accuracy and how well it fits in with how other people are making edits around the world.

You stopped replying as people did not agree with your view and tried alternative methods.

If you get more people here to agree with your way of thinking I’ll revise my edits, but since most people are following the same sort of guidlines I use I’m not inclined to change things at this point.

This is not your map, this is a map shared and owned by everyone in the world that contributes to or uses it.

How about some photographs of some of the roads/tracks concerned?

There are hundreds of edits, hundreds of roads. Satellite imagery is quite good though.
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=14/49.0248/-54.8380
One of the biggest clues in this area is that what I have reduced to a Tertiary Road is the Salmon Pond Forest Resource Road and smaller roads and trails to Unmaintained Track Roads as these roads are not serviced, plowed during the winter etc. The next time they will be looked after is when the logging companies come back to harvest the area again. If there are a few cabins I upgrade the road to residential. Quarries to service roads etc.

@SomeoneElse, here are some examples of the types of roads involved.

Unpaved Tertiary
1. Unpaved tertiary road in summer
2. Unpaved tertiary road in autumn
3. Unpaved tertiary road near dams and power generating stations
4. Unpaved tertiary road with bridge
5. Unpaved tertiary road in winter
6. Unpaved tertiary road in winter - in use

Unpaved Unclassified
1. Unpaved unclassified
2. Unpaved unclassified
3. Unpaved unclassified
4. Unpaved unclassified, typical of service roads leading to cabins
5. Unpaved unclassified, typical logging road that will deteriorate over time

Unpaved Track
1. Track beside paved highway
2. Track beside unpaved tertiary
3. Track that was an unclassified road but has deteriorated
4. Track through scrub underbrush
5. Track that was an unclassified road but has deteriorated
6. Track that appears overgrown from satellite photos
7. Track through small trees
8. Track on muddy ground
9. Track on rocky ground

I’d agree with the track/not a track distinction in the images I sampled.

Tertiary/unclassified is not something you can decide just from a photograph.

I’m not quite there.
What I saw in Unpaved Track Pictures I would classify as Unmaintained Track Road with Smoothness Level https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:smoothness of (specialized_off_road_wheels) tractor, ATV
The Unpaved Unclassified I would classify as Unmaintained Track Road with Smoothness Level (robust_wheels) trekking bike, normal cars. The reason for this is that they are very narrow and the trees will leave marks in the paint job and they are not smooth enough for low riding cars as well. So anyone with a nice car will not risk the damage. You can clearly see these are narrow one lane and the tire tracks some with grass in the middle are clearly visible.
The Unpaved Tertiary pictures I would classify as Unclassified Roads bumping them up where appropriate. For example https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/49.0947/-54.8278 I have reduced to a Tertiary Road the Salmon Pond Forest Resource Road. I kept this above Unclassified because you could technically argue that it connects The Towns of Glenwood, Birchy Bay and Clarkes Head. Although no one will actually use these woods roads for that purpose as there are perfectly good well maintained paved highways connecting these communities.
This sums up our dispute as GnasherNF bumps all forest resource roads up above unclassified, and had huge numbers of these roads https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/49.1429/-55.6524 up as Secondary and Primary.
I’ll only give a tertiary rating to a woods road that would link small communities and I’m not fond of that when there are paved highways linking these communities.
"

When I started mapping, there were not many unpaved roads mapped in Newfoundland. Most roads that were mapped were tagged as secondary and tertiary roads, so I used them as the example to follow and made most of my roads either secondary or tertiary. The last link listed above is an excellent example as those roads were added in 2012 (not by me) as all secondary. I have actually been downgrading these roads, NOT upgrading them as stated. Feel free to examine the history of these ways to verify.

I only realized there was an issue with tagging these roads as secondary/tertiary when I noticed all the roads I was adding were being changed to highway=track with no tracktype applied. I am willing to admit my mistakes and change the way I tag. I already have, and will continue to remain open to change as it comes up.

Let me clearly state - I want these road networks to be accurate. That is why I add them. I do not want them to be inaccurate.

Traffic patterns on the unpaved roads in Newfoundland are similar to roads in a city. In a city, residential roads lead to tertiary roads, which lead to secondary roads, which lead to primary roads, and then to trunk roads, each carrying more traffic. In the rural areas, tracks lead to roads, which sometimes lead to tertiary roads which cover or link larger areas, which then lead to the paved road network. If you are navigating the woods (why else use a map?), a tertiary road will get you out, and are generally wider and better maintained.

Here are some examples of unpaved roads I tag as tertiary:

  1. https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/146628702 - starts here and continues west, only broken by bridges. Over 60km long and links paved highways, and connects all of the roads and buildings in between to the paved network.
  2. https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/146236518 - starts here and continues east. Over 90 km long and only broken by bridges. Again, links all roads and tracks and buildings in between to the paved road network on both ends.
  3. https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/146220394 - stretches east and west along the south side of Red Indian Lake. Over 70km long and links to the paved road network and the nearest town of Millertown to the east. There are a lot of side roads along this route and it is very easy to get lost in unmapped, dead-end roads.
  4. https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/146307435 - connects the TCH in the south to the paved Botwood highway in the east. All other roads and tracks and buildings in this area connect to the paved network through these tertiary roads.

It is important that these unpaved roads are tagged as unpaved. If a mapper has worries about people accidentally getting routed onto these roads (which OSM isn’t responsible for) then note that routing software gives priority to paved networks and most times will only route onto unpaved roads if paved roads are not available.