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#1 2018-05-16 16:47:21

bodaggin
Member
Registered: 2018-05-10
Posts: 13

Complex Speed Limit tagging

Wondering if "time-based" or temp speed limit tagging are available in OSM. (We're using OSM limit data for app.)

Example: School zone limits are in effect from 7am to 5:30pm, and during this time a 30km/h limit applies. Whereas outside of this time a 50km/h limit applies. Is there a way to set this in OSM? (I'm using Potlatch2, but can use JOSM if functions exist there)

In addition, construction zone limits can last for months, so it would be nice to edit data here in OSM using the existing editors, vs building our own editing platforms for our app. For construction zones, I guess we could just change the "base limit" of a segment for the duration of the construction and change it back when complete. However, twice daily changing school zones wouldn't be practical.

Let me know if anyone has seen a way to accomplish this more technical goal. Thanks!

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#2 2018-05-16 17:23:58

n76
Member
Registered: 2013-05-22
Posts: 223

Re: Complex Speed Limit tagging

I think you can deal with your school speed limit using conditional restrictions. There is even a sample of a time based conditional speed limit on that wiki page. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Con … strictions

Unfortunately, in my area school speed limits are usually posted with "when children are present" rather than with hours of operation and I've not figured out how to tag that in a way that would be useful.

With respect to construction speeds: During the recent freeway/motorway multiple year construction in my area I set maxspeed to the construction speed limit and now that the construction work has finished, I've changed the maxspeed back to the non-construction value. Not sure that helps. But in cases where construction can last months or years it seem reasonable.

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#3 2018-05-16 17:31:33

bodaggin
Member
Registered: 2018-05-10
Posts: 13

Re: Complex Speed Limit tagging

My friend this is EXACTLY what I was looking for (school and construction). Conditional. Exactly! Thank you so much.

I don't understand how to use these tags yet... lol but this is the desired function. I'll figure out.

Totally hear you about "when children present", very difficult to put a formula on. Thanks!!

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#4 2018-05-16 17:47:20

bodaggin
Member
Registered: 2018-05-10
Posts: 13

Re: Complex Speed Limit tagging

Actually, do you use Potlatch2?

If anyone does, can you tell me exactly what to put in the "key" and "value" fields?

It seems a bit confusing whether the time restriction goes in the "key" or "value" fields. I'm running a test right now, but would love confirmation as well so my work follows standard practice. Thanks!

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#5 2018-05-16 20:03:12

Brian de Ford
Member
From: Cardigan, Ceredigion, UK
Registered: 2017-08-30
Posts: 129

Re: Complex Speed Limit tagging

bodaggin wrote:

Actually, do you use Potlatch2?

Potlach2 is somewhat deprecated.  Apart from anything else, it relies on Flush¹, which keeps having major security issues and is itself deprecated (end of life is 2020).

bodaggin wrote:

If anyone does, can you tell me exactly what to put in the "key" and "value" fields?

See the example on the wiki page n76 mentioned.  The key is the bit before the equal sign and the value is the bit after the equal sign.

So, key is "maxspeed:conditional" and value is "100 @ (20:00-06:00)".

Don't forget to explicitly give the default for when the conditional doesn't apply, such as maxspeed=120.

---------
¹Some people call it "Flash" but after the first time I saw a website mplemented entirely in Flash I concluded that the designer might as well have flushed the site down the toilet.  YMMV.

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#6 2018-05-16 20:17:17

bodaggin
Member
Registered: 2018-05-10
Posts: 13

Re: Complex Speed Limit tagging

Great Brian this makes complete sense. One final question. I suspect times are UTC, not local. Correct?

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#7 2018-05-16 20:26:32

hadw
Member
Registered: 2014-09-02
Posts: 1,081

Re: Complex Speed Limit tagging

Times are always local.

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#8 2018-05-16 20:27:42

bodaggin
Member
Registered: 2018-05-10
Posts: 13

Re: Complex Speed Limit tagging

Excellent, thanks hadw! I think I'm set. Will begin using this practice and ask back if any issues. Thanks for the help!

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#9 2018-05-16 22:52:40

Brian de Ford
Member
From: Cardigan, Ceredigion, UK
Registered: 2017-08-30
Posts: 129

Re: Complex Speed Limit tagging

bodaggin wrote:

Will begin using this practice and ask back if any issues. Thanks for the help!

It's probably worth investigating the iD editor (the default editor on osm.org) before 2020 comes and Flush stops getting any security updates (or any updates at all).  Given that vulnerabilities in Flush appear on a regular basis (see https://www.csoonline.com/article/31584 … cared.html) it's a really bad idea to run Flush without security updates.  Not only that, newer versions of browsers won't run Flush unless you explicitly install and/or enable it.

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#10 2018-05-16 23:06:05

bodaggin
Member
Registered: 2018-05-10
Posts: 13

Re: Complex Speed Limit tagging

Ohh that one. Can't use it. No multi-select, we'd be here for years editing limits. Horrible UX speed for that unfortunately. Will have to keep using Potlatch2 until it dies or they improve iD. Thanks for bringing this to attention.

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#11 2018-05-16 23:13:25

Brian de Ford
Member
From: Cardigan, Ceredigion, UK
Registered: 2017-08-30
Posts: 129

Re: Complex Speed Limit tagging

bodaggin wrote:

Will have to keep using Potlatch2 until it dies or they improve iD.

Or try JOSM or Merkaartor.  I've not used either of them so I don't know if they can do what you want.  I suspect JOSM can (might need a plugin) but that's just a guess.  Somebody will be along soon to correct me. smile

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#12 2018-05-16 23:15:06

bodaggin
Member
Registered: 2018-05-10
Posts: 13

Re: Complex Speed Limit tagging

Tried JOSM and couldn't download data for some reason, didn't give it a full shot because Potlatch just worked point and shoot for me. Will look into this Merk one too. Great suggestion. New to OSM so appreciate all the help. Very very powerful platform! Very thankful for it

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#13 2018-05-17 16:38:11

Viajero Perdido
Member
Registered: 2016-10-13
Posts: 55

Re: Complex Speed Limit tagging

Try again with JOSM.  The king of editors.  Worth the effort to get up the learning curve.

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#14 2018-05-17 16:44:53

bodaggin
Member
Registered: 2018-05-10
Posts: 13

Re: Complex Speed Limit tagging

Thanks for the push Viajero. I will do. If I have any problems I'm going to ping you guys here in this thread as JOSM is related here. Thanks for all of your wisdom so far.

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#15 2018-05-18 10:53:30

Richard
Member
From: Charlbury, UK
Registered: 2007-04-24
Posts: 345
Website

Re: Complex Speed Limit tagging

Brian de Ford wrote:
bodaggin wrote:

Actually, do you use Potlatch2?

Potlach2 is somewhat deprecated.  Apart from anything else, it relies on Flush¹, which keeps having major security issues and is itself deprecated (end of life is 2020).

This is not true.

In-browser Flash Player is deprecated. The desktop Flash runtime (Adobe AIR) is not deprecated. P2 is being transitioned from the former to the latter.

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#16 2018-05-18 14:19:55

Brian de Ford
Member
From: Cardigan, Ceredigion, UK
Registered: 2017-08-30
Posts: 129

Re: Complex Speed Limit tagging

Richard wrote:

In-browser Flash Player is deprecated. The desktop Flash runtime (Adobe AIR) is not deprecated. P2 is being transitioned from the former to the latter.

I stand corrected.  However...

A few thoughts

1)  I don't have AIR.  Or have a need for it.

2) AIR isn't even supported for my OS, and the last release available for my OS is from 2011, so I couldn't have a bug-free, secure version even if I wanted it (I don't).

3): AIR shares the same codebase as Flush, so is just as buggy and insecure.  Given Adobe's track record, it will always be buggy and insecure.

4) People will either have to install AIR runtime in order to use it or put up with larger downloads where the runtime is bundled into the app.  Unless you offer unbundled, or are prepared to offer a bundle with the 2011 runtime for Linux, I won't be able to use it even if I wanted to (I don't).

5) I tried P2.  It made it hard to do things I wanted to do that were easy in iD.  I expect it makes some things easy that are hard in iD but back when I gave P2 a try I didn't encounter any.

6) JOSM does more, and does it better (so I'm told).  It runs on Java, and I despise Java, but Java is not as bad/buggy/insecure as Flush/AIR.

So it's nice to know P2 will continue to be available after 2020, but I won't be using it.  Perhaps others will.  I'd advise them not to, based simply on Adobe's track record for security holes.

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#17 2018-05-18 15:09:49

Richard
Member
From: Charlbury, UK
Registered: 2007-04-24
Posts: 345
Website

Re: Complex Speed Limit tagging

I'm not quite sure why I should remotely care what editor you choose to use?

Last edited by Richard (2018-05-18 15:34:32)

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#18 2018-05-18 15:45:45

Brian de Ford
Member
From: Cardigan, Ceredigion, UK
Registered: 2017-08-30
Posts: 129

Re: Complex Speed Limit tagging

Brian de Ford wrote:

I'm not quite sure why I should remotely care what editor you choose to use?

It depends whether you prefer that software match the needs of its users or the egos of its authors.

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#19 2018-05-18 15:49:03

Richard
Member
From: Charlbury, UK
Registered: 2007-04-24
Posts: 345
Website

Re: Complex Speed Limit tagging

a) That is really, really unnecessarily hostile

b) You're not a P2 user. You've said so. That's fine. OSM has lots of editing software. That's good. Choice is good. There are people who like P2. You're not one of them. No software suits everyone. I'm totally failing to see what the issue is here.

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#20 2018-05-19 00:39:23

Brian de Ford
Member
From: Cardigan, Ceredigion, UK
Registered: 2017-08-30
Posts: 129

Re: Complex Speed Limit tagging

Richard wrote:

a) That is really, really unnecessarily hostile

We have something in common, then.  I thought your response of

Richard wrote:

I'm not quite sure why I should remotely care what editor you choose to use?

to be unnecessarily hostile, in a passive-aggressive sort of way.  I responded in a similar manner, but I was making a point: there are developers who respond to the needs of their users and there are those who do not.

Brian de Ford wrote:

b) You're not a P2 user. You've said so.

I tried it for a time when iD was broken for some users with certain hardware.  I'm not currently a user because it wouldn't let me do what I wanted to do, something that was easy in iD.  And I am a potential user.  Well, I suppose that's definitely in the past tense, now.  Was a potential user.  After this thread, that potential is no longer there.  The dependence on seriously bug-ridden Adobe s/w put it way down my list; the inability to do what I wanted moved it even lower; with this thread it's no longer on the list and will never re-appear on the list.  You're happy with that, and so am I.

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#21 2018-05-19 16:56:24

Tordanik
Moderator
From: Germany
Registered: 2008-06-17
Posts: 2,301
Website

Re: Complex Speed Limit tagging

Brian, I believe we operate from shared values, as I've certainly been vocally critical of Flash in the past. Still, your posts have felt rather dismissive towards people like Richard who invest countless hours of their time in the development of OSM editors.

Richard most likely has a thicker skin than I do, but as a developer, let me say that it can be very hurtful to have your work devalued. On the whole, the OSM community strikes me as a friendly and welcoming bunch, and I hope we all continue to hold ourselves to a high standard of behaviour.

Also, let's keep in mind that Potlatch is no longer the default editor, and Flash is no longer a real danger to open internet standards. So the stakes just aren't all that high anymore. Today, both are a relatively niche option that people can seek out voluntarily. I'm a JOSM user, but I'm still grateful for the diversity of editors available to the mapper community. Choice, healthy competition, and mutual inspiration are beneficial for the project as a whole.

@bodaggin: Sorry that your thread got derailed a bit (and that I'm ultimately contributing to the off-topic content with this post). I believe your initial question has been answered, and if you have any further questions I'm sure people will be glad to help! In the meantime, I hope you enjoy mapping, no matter which editor works best for you. smile

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#22 2018-05-19 20:38:48

Brian de Ford
Member
From: Cardigan, Ceredigion, UK
Registered: 2017-08-30
Posts: 129

Re: Complex Speed Limit tagging

Tordanik wrote:

as a developer, let me say that it can be very hurtful to have your work devalued

Been there, done that, thrown away the T-shirt.  But the converse is also true.  As a user, it can be very hurtful to have your comments devalued.  I twice mentioned that when iD was broken for some of us, I tried P2 and found it unable to do what I wanted to do, something which was very easy in iD.

With my developer hat on, if I'd seen a comment like that from somebody, however obnoxious, even somebody who swore never to use my product again, I'd still want to know what my s/w was lacking.  Even if it turned out to be a PEBKAC error, maybe the UI and/or documentation could be improved.  Instead, the response was "I'm not quite sure why I should remotely care what editor you choose to use?"

So, both sides at fault.  With a happy resolution.  I'm never going to use P2 again and Richard doesn't care which editor I use.  Both of us are happy.  Ecstatic, even.  I will continue to be critical of Flash (when and where appropriate) but I will not criticise P2.  If somebody asks about alternative editors I might suggest JOSM (although I hate Java, both as a language and as a run-time) or Merkaartor (no package for my distro and too many dependencies that I'd have to install before it will compile) or Vespucci on Android, even though I've not tried any of them.  In fact I'd suggest any other editor I've heard of, because one of them might be well-suited to what the person wants to do.  However, I will never recommend or even suggest the use of P2 to anyone under any circumstances, and that is a direct consequence of this thread.  Fault me on that decision if you wish, but it's not going to change.

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#23 2018-05-20 14:11:19

SomeoneElse
Member
Registered: 2010-10-13
Posts: 960

Re: Complex Speed Limit tagging

Brian de Ford wrote:

So, both sides at fault.

No Brian - only one side is at fault here, and that's you.  Tordanik summed it up excellently above.  A community like OSM works if people respect each other and treat each other in a civil manner.  Your "A few thoughts" message is entirely offtopic in this thread and adds no value here.

(back on topic)

bodaggin wrote:

Tried JOSM and couldn't download data for some reason,

That could be a number of things, and what it is might depend on the OS your using (for example this morning I ran into https://help.openstreetmap.org/question … o-run-josm *).  Chances are that whatever the problem was someone's seen it before and a search of this forum or https://help.openstreetmap.org will fnd it (or ask a new question)

* somewhat ironic, given the thread above - the latest JOSM from the JOSM site doesn't run on the latest version of Ubuntu, through no fault of the JOSM developers, but Potlatch 1 and 2 both do.  Just a bit of a cockup at Ubuntu that I'm sure will be fixed very shortly.

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