International Admin Boundaries 2018

In Somalia hat ein User mehrere Grenzen gelöscht und Namen geändert siehe https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=61460 Die übliche ich-weiss-es-besser-als-alle-anderen Masche ohne Diskussion.

Ist alles in der Zwischenzeit revertiert.

Danke für die Info. Mal schauen, wie sich der Kollege verhält.

Gruss
walter

Hi All,

I have attached two maps of Somalia and as you can see the odd ‘‘administrative border’’ that someone just decided to make an “international border” without it being reflective of the reality on the ground. Above all it is inaccurate for geographical purposes as well. We need it to be accurate for us to do humanitarian/logistics & Supply chain project. We do not want to confuse our foreign haulage company with inaccurate border crossings.

This has very deep impact on various geographical maps across the internet to the confusion of many people around the world. It is like putting the border between Scotland and England as “international border” or Bavaria State regional border and rest of Germany. This would confuse and make the map inaccurate as this is not the reality on the ground. I love the use of OSM and it’s nice community and therefore I’d like you to please have a look at this. I will take this up further with data team as well.

https://ibb.co/dE05Hc <It should be administrative border
https://ibb.co/faeUAx <Actual map, additionally check Google maps as even accurate map.

Please let me know what you can do? smile Once again thank you for effort and time.

Danke shon!
Tedros

SimonPoole, You have come here behind my back whilst pretending to help me in the other forum post. I genuinely just wanted help and neither did I press my case as strongly as you put it calling me “The usual I know it better than anyone” Using your own words.

That’s really dissappointing to see that you haven’t even tried to push me in the right direction whilst I clearly told in the other post that I am new here. I am really dishearten to see the way you dealt with me. Never have I seen something like this before.

How come you haven’t changed Scotland and England’s borders to “international border status”? That is exactly what you are doing in this case in Somalia? How come you are quick to shout here to** change a regional border into International border?** I haven’t just “deleted borders” as you put it wrongly. These are highly inaccurate depictions. Even Google maps has got it right? So are they wrong or any other GIS services? How about 99% of maps online are they wrong as well or did they not put the “right” Simon borders on it?

Don’t you know that this has a massive impact on the way OSM is perceived outside here? As OSM is the engine of many websites around the world with maps? I suppose you not aware the damage you are doing to OSM.

You have fully disqualified yourself in my eyes. However I still appreciate OSM and the community at large. Thank you.

Proof: https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=61460 Please see my post how I genuinely was seeking help.

Deutsch

Es tut mir leid, dass mein Deutsch nicht so gut ist. Bitte zögern Sie nicht, auf Deutsch zu antworten, ich werde versuchen, zu verstehen.
Ich bin einfach verärgert über die einseitigen Aktionen dieses Mitglieds und tue so, als ob es mir helfen würde.

Danke,
Tedros

Taking https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/126925545 as an example, it’s currently a member of several relations.

Somaliland https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/3586169 (admin level 3, which is often used for disputed areas)
Sanaag https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/1720065 (admin level 4)
Bari https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/1720054 (admin level 4)
and 2 other admin level 6 boundaries.
it’s not part of Somalia https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/192799 (admin level 2)

Are you saying that:

  • It should be part of the Somalia country boundary
  • It should not be part of the Somaliland “disputed area” boundary
  • One of the admin levels on one of the relations is wrong, and if so, which one?
  • Something else?

Please be aware that tiles in OSM’s “standard layer” may be out of date (especially at the zoom levels at which you view countries) and that at low zooms admin level 3 boundaries seem to look very similar to admin level 2 ones.

Moin,

hier die aktuelle Missing Boundaries-Auswertung: https://wambachers-osm.website/index.php/10-osm-reports/1145-countries-compare-2018-02-26

Der Datenstand ist vom 2018-02-25 23:03:02+01

14 Missings und keine kritische Grenze.

Gruss
walter

Moin,

hier die aktuelle Missing Boundaries-Auswertung: https://wambachers-osm.website/index.php/10-osm-reports/1146-countries-compare-2018-02-27

Der Datenstand ist vom 2018-02-26 23:02:02+01

18 Missings und eine kritische Grenze.

Gruss
walter

Moin,

hier die aktuelle Missing Boundaries-Auswertung: https://wambachers-osm.website/index.php/10-osm-reports/1147-countries-compare-2018-02-28

Der Datenstand ist vom 2018-02-27 23:02:02+01

39 Missings und drei kritische Grenzen.

Gruss
walter

Moin,

hier die aktuelle Missing Boundaries-Auswertung: https://wambachers-osm.website/index.php/10-osm-reports/1148-countries-compare-2018-03-01

Der Datenstand ist vom 2018-02-28 23:02:03+01

39 Missings und zwei kritische Grenzen.

Gruss
walter

Moin,

hier die aktuelle Missing Boundaries-Auswertung: https://wambachers-osm.website/index.php/10-osm-reports/1149-countries-compare-2018-03-02

Der Datenstand ist vom 2018-03-01 23:01:02+01

30 Missings und drei kritische Grenzen.

Gruss
walter

Re Somalia / Somaililand (trying to wrap things up in the absence of further comment from the person who thought OSM was wrong):

What OSM has are areas that are essentially the maximal “claim” for both Somalia (as admin_level=2) and Somaliland (as admin_level=3). This is fairly in keeping with other places around the world. It’s true here (as elsewhere) that both entities’ control over those areas is weak. There are other lower-level entities there (e.g. Puntland) that as I understand it don’t claim statehood, so Puntland in OSM is probably also OK, even though it appears to be in dispute with Somaliland. Essentially then what OSM has is probably “as good as it can be” within OSM’s data model.

Of course, if someone has other information (and not just from the usual news sources, wikipedia and the CIA World Factbook) then please do say so - my knowledge of the situation in this part of Africa is remote and likely to remain so.

Sorry, don’t know other sources.

tnx
walter

Moin,

hier die aktuelle Missing Boundaries-Auswertung: https://wambachers-osm.website/index.php/10-osm-reports/1150-countries-compare-2018-03-03

Der Datenstand ist vom 2018-03-02 23:01:02+01

58 Missings und 5 kritische Grenzen.

Gruss
walter

Irgendwas ist komisch: “defekte” Länder und ich kann auf den 1. Blick fast nix finden. Sieht einer mehr?
Ich schau mir mal den Log der Auswertung an.

In Lettland hat wer um Mitternacht rum gebastelt. da kann sowas schon mal vorkommen.
BELarus auch.

Ansonsten ist es neben DEU fast der ganze Ostblock.

Grübelnde Grüsse
walter

EDIT: Im Log ist nix Schlimmes zu finden, nur dass diese Länder halt fehlen :frowning:

Hi I am discussing this matter with Data working group offline to make the map more authentic than what is depicted.

I am exactly saying the below part here.
*** It should be part of the Somalia country boundary **

Ok, thats a statement - but which area or areas do you mean in detail?

please be more specific.

@SomeoneElse: “it’s not part of Somalia”

do you say:

  • It is not part of Somalia in the real world
    or
  • At this moment it is not part of the OSM-View of Somalia
    or
  • something else ?

and which two al6 are you (andy) talking about?

tried to create an (uncomplete) image:

All areas a part of somalia(2) in OSM and some of them do overlap.

Regards
walter

Re Somalia, see https://www.openstreetmap.org/user_blocks/1792 and the comment on https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/56852460 . I don’t want to dismiss out of hand the idea that the admin levels in OSM are wrong here, but we need at least some evidence saying what the problem actually is and what the correct admin levels are as of 2018. Currently OSM (until the recent unilateral changes) reflected pretty much what https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Somalia_%282009%E2%80%93present%29 and other sources said - Somali claim over the whole country; Somaliland claim over the area OSM had as admin_level=3. OSM didn’t reflect the Puntland/Somaliland dispute, the issues described at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somaliland#Border_disputes or the rest of the civil war issues concentrated in the south of Somalia, but I don’t think that it would be feasible for us to do so with rigid “admin_level” boundaries.

That’s contradicted by your most recent edit!

Also, do you have any evidence of what the current situation on the ground is? We’re trying to get the boundaries right here. Does my summary at https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?pid=687614#p687614 make any sense to you? If not, what parts are incorrect?