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#101 2018-01-12 13:26:09

The Duke of Waltham
Member
Registered: 2016-09-07
Posts: 10

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

nikospag wrote:

Ha ha ha ! that was funny. I am wondering where the hell did they find the number 13 !!!!.
Nevertheless i will try to inform them about their mistake, thanks for sharing this.

Edit: Egnatia Odos has been notified. (including your Google photo).

I'll wager a guess and say someone didn't look well at the map and thought 13 continued through Katerini to Alexandria. It doesn't make much more sense than the alternatives, but there you have it.

Thank you for your trouble. I wonder how long it will take them to fix the signs; I imagine they'll just paste something on them, for the time being at least.

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#102 2018-01-13 01:38:44

nikospag
Member
From: Piraeus, Greece
Registered: 2012-03-08
Posts: 105
Website

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

I imagine they'll just paste something on them, for the time being at least.

Probably.

I'll wager a guess and say someone didn't look well at the map and thought 13 continued through Katerini to Alexandria.

That's an excuse for amateurs and not for professional road constructors. Anyway i hope they will fix this soon and properly.

PS. We are off topic. Sorry for that guys.

Last edited by nikospag (2018-01-13 01:56:32)

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#103 2018-01-13 15:35:29

ika-chan!
Member
Registered: 2016-10-23
Posts: 18

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

Hi all, I’ve taken time off the road classification debate for personal reasons (instead I am adding missing roads from Bing/DigitalGlobe imagery), but I think that one of the reasons the debate appears to lose sense of direction is because we may be trying to compromise too much in terms of whether a road is this or that on the basis of the road condition.

I think that we should not be making enemies with "lanes=*", "surface=*" and "smoothness=*" when deciding on classification of the roads. By using these keys to describe the real condition of the roads, I feel that the development of the road classification policy for the mainland will be a lot simpler and a lot less heated.

Last edited by ika-chan! (2018-01-13 15:37:20)


No one has to be 100% perfect at OpenStreetMap.

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#104 2018-01-14 01:53:42

nikospag
Member
From: Piraeus, Greece
Registered: 2012-03-08
Posts: 105
Website

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

ika-chan! wrote:

to lose sense of direction is because we may be trying to compromise too much in terms of whether a road is this or that on the basis of the road condition.

I don't think that we classify roads on the basis of the road condition, but on the basis of legal documents.

ika-chan! wrote:

I think that we should not be making enemies with "lanes=*", "surface=*" and "smoothness=*" when deciding on classification of the roads. By using these keys to describe the real condition of the roads, I feel that the development of the road classification policy for the mainland will be a lot simpler and a lot less heated.

We use these tags, as our wiki mentions that. - https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Wik … twork#Ways.
But this doesn't solve the classification problem in Greece (eg. what roads should be trunk roads).

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#105 2018-01-14 08:56:17

ika-chan!
Member
Registered: 2016-10-23
Posts: 18

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

Looking back, I think that the classification problem is the worst I have ever seen: however, I think I can support the idea all villages should be served by at least a tertiary road for navigational reasons. lanes=*, surface=* and smoothness=* should handle the real condition of the road.

In respect of JayCBR, my main concern at present is that the user does not leave changeset comments, which left me confused as to what kind of system the user was trying to implement. (Source: https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/JayCBR/history)


No one has to be 100% perfect at OpenStreetMap.

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#106 2018-01-16 12:50:40

nikospag
Member
From: Piraeus, Greece
Registered: 2012-03-08
Posts: 105
Website

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

ika-chan! wrote:

In respect of JayCBR, my main concern at present is that the user does not leave changeset comments, which left me confused as to what kind of system the user was trying to implement.

I agree. Editing without comments is a bad practice and shows disrespect for other editors. Comments are very-very important.
As for the "all villages should be served by at least a tertiary road for navigational reasons", i think this is already a fact for most, if not all, villages in Greece.

I want to add something about National Roads Registry of 1998.
Three days now i am digging through documents published on the Official Government Gazette and other documents from various Municipalities published on the web. I haven't found, not even one, that mentions National Roads Registry of 1998 .

I guess that is because this document has not been published on the Official Government Gazette, and that makes it a low value document, even if it is a fully legal and official document. Therefore i strongly recommend that we must treat it accordingly, and keep it low in our list of sources for roads classification numbering, or not to keep it at all.

Last edited by nikospag (2018-01-18 20:48:13)

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#107 2018-01-17 18:58:05

JayCBR
Member
Registered: 2015-03-11
Posts: 140

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

Stop Fighting Over Who Created The World And Fight Against The People Who Are Trying To Destroy It

ika chan we have talked about this so many times..i wont spend half an in hour in every changeset stating the obvious (every time i spend more than 10-15 minutes editing, i get the incorrect version error)

you dont have to jump in like a beep in every discussion and bring this up again and again, in a completely unrelated manner

we all know the official classification is a mess..we had 3 options:
a. leave the roads in their condition they were 2-3 years ago
b. ignore the official classification (like i wanted from day 1)
c. follow the official documents by letter (we voted for this and we tried so hard to implement it), i know the 1998 registry is not in any gazzette but it solves so many problems and contradictions

we could use nat_ref for those ambiguous numberings so nobody has a problem with them, but THEY ARE national highways, although not mentioned in the 1963 document

Last edited by JayCBR (2018-01-17 19:53:09)

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#108 2018-01-18 21:38:30

nikospag
Member
From: Piraeus, Greece
Registered: 2012-03-08
Posts: 105
Website

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

The last phrase in my previous post has been changed to:

Therefore i strongly recommend that we must treat it accordingly, and keep it low in our list of sources for roads classification numbering, or not to keep it at all.

I think its more clear now.


JayCBR wrote:

a. leave the roads in their condition they were 2-3 years ago
b. ignore the official classification (like i wanted from day 1)

Those options were and they still are unacceptable, and you know that.

JayCBR wrote:

c. follow the official documents by letter (we voted for this and we tried so hard to implement it), i know the 1998 registry is not in any gazzette but it solves so many problems and contradictions

we could use nat_ref for those ambiguous numberings so nobody has a problem with them, but THEY ARE national highways, although not mentioned in the 1963 document

We will still follow the  official documents by letter, except this one.
I know that it seems to solve many problems and contradictions (and it does), but there is a problem when the only official mapping organization in Greece (OKXE) is not using it, and as far as i know they will not use it at all in future updates. (and i think that an update is being "cooked" right now as we speak).
If OKXE is not accepting this document, it makes no sense to use it in OSM.
I agree with you that THEY ARE national highways, and they will remain that way, and that is ok with OKXE too (in most, if not all, cases i think). We will only remove the numbering (ref), and nothing else.

PS. As for the comments, i am wondering why no other user/editor has a problem to leave comments (worldwide). If you are the only one, then you must start wondering too. I think that comments make your life easier too when you are editing.

PS. Το επόμενο μήνυμα μου θα είναι στα Ελληνικά, όπως και σε κάθε forum του OSM που γράφουν στην γλώσσα τους. (εκτός ίσως από μερικά που έχουν το ίδιο κόμπλεξ με μας)

Last edited by nikospag (2018-01-18 23:14:08)

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#109 2018-01-18 23:08:26

JayCBR
Member
Registered: 2015-03-11
Posts: 140

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

in order to have a discussion you have to be open to others opinions..labeling my ideas unacceptable and stating i m the only one in the world to have a problem is not helping (by the way this is a common problem in P2, you need to keep your edits very short so nobody can interfere)

about the actual classification, i was hoping to reach a compromise about non numbered roads (so they are classified according to destinations) and trunk roads (they exist in osm for a reason, why not use them)

PS: i could erase any crap unrelated to road classification if you do too, if anybody has a problem with somebody better send a pm

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#110 2018-02-17 20:22:33

nikospag
Member
From: Piraeus, Greece
Registered: 2012-03-08
Posts: 105
Website

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

Because i don't want to leave loose ends, and before i switch to Greek language i'd like to answer to this topic.
Personally i don't care much about comments because an experienced user can see each and every edit of any user, down to the smallest detail. But generally comments are useful for most of other users.

Τώρα για τα trunk roads, διάβασα την άποψη του JayCBR που λέει για την σύνδεση αυτοκινητόδρομων ή σημαντικών προορισμών. Όμως αυτό μου ακούγεται ως αρκετά ευρεία έννοια. Θα προτιμούσα κάτι solid (παγιωμένο), και που να είναι γραμμένο κάπου όπως πχ στα ΦΕΚ. (έτσι ώστε να μην το ερμηνεύει ο καθένας όπως θέλει).

Αφού το trunk ουσιαστικά έχει ελευθερωθεί, και επειδή όπως είπε ο JayCBR  (they exist in osm for a reason, why not use them), και επειδή το wiki λέει για τα trunk roads "The most important roads in a country's system that aren't motorways. (Need not necessarily be a divided highway.) " προτείνω να ενταχθούν κανονικά στο Εθνικό οδικό δίκτυο. Δηλαδή να κάνουμε ένα κλικ πιο κάτω την κατηγοριοποίηση των Εθνικών οδών, ήτοι:

Πρωτεύων: Αυτοκινητόδρομοι (και φυσικά trunk για τα υπολειπόμενα κομμάτια)
Δευτερεύων: trunk
Τριτεύων: primary
και όλο το επαρχιακό secondary (δηλ όπως είναι).

οπότε περιορίζουμε και το εύρος του secondary που "έπιανε" και το τριτεύων δίκτυο, και έτσι θα "πιάνει" μόνο το επαρχιακό.
Ως αποτέλεσμα το οδικό δίκτυο στον χάρτη θα γίνει πολύ πιο διακριτό.

Last edited by nikospag (2018-02-17 21:28:15)

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#111 2018-02-19 20:55:01

JayCBR
Member
Registered: 2015-03-11
Posts: 140

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

Είμαι αντίθετος στη μαζική αλλαγή κλάσης διότι:
-το δευτερεύον εθνικό δίκτυο έχει δρόμους που δεν είναι και πολύ trunk
-το τριτεύον αφορά κυρίως παλιές εθνικές οδούς και γενικά δρόμοι που δεν θα έπρεπε να είναι primary, νομίζω είναι σωστά στην ίδια κλάση με επαρχιακές
-αν ανεβάσουμε κλάση θα πάει ο άλλος και θα κάνει όλες τις επαρχιακές primary

Η πρότασή μου, αν και δεν υποδεικνύεται από κάποιο ΦΕΚ, είναι πολύ συγκεκριμένη, αφορά πόλεις (>10.000 κατοίκους), διεθνή λιμάνια/αεροδρόμια, συνοριακούς σταθμούς..πλήρη λίστα με τους δρόμους υπάρχει σε προηγούμενες σελίδες

Last edited by JayCBR (2018-02-20 20:19:24)

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#112 2018-02-22 13:10:00

LeonCR
Member
Registered: 2017-10-23
Posts: 4

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

Ένα link κι από την Ελληνική Στατιστική Αρχή για το μητρώο εθνικών οδών του 1998
http://dlib.statistics.gr/Book/GRESYE_02_2007_00001.pdf

Η δική μου τώρα ερώτηση αφορά μια άλλη παράμετρο, τους ελληνικούς δρόμους που αποτελούν μέρος του διευρωπαϊκού δικτύου
και οι οποίοι σε άλλες περιπτώσεις σημαίνονται στο osm ως trunk κλπ σε άλλες όχι,
παρόλο που οι μεν από τους δε ίσως και να μη διαφέρουν ως προς τα επιμέρους χαρακτηριστικά τους (γεωμετρικά, συγκοινωνιακοί φόρτοι, σημαντικότητα κλπ).
Τελικά μου δίνει μια εντύπωση πως δεν υπάρχει μια ενιαία αντιμετώπιση ούτε στο επίπεδο του διευρωπαϊκού δικτύου, χωρίς να θέλω να επεκταθώ στο ευρύτερο θέμα.

ΥΓ: Ένα offtopic και συγνώμη για να μην ανοίξω θέμα, πώς σημαίνονται οι απαγορεύσεις διέλευσης για φορτηγά-βαρέα σε ένα δρόμο και οι κάμερες λεωφορειολωρίδων;

Last edited by LeonCR (2018-02-22 13:59:09)

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#113 2018-02-22 14:19:40

JayCBR
Member
Registered: 2015-03-11
Posts: 140

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

έχουμε αποφασίσει να μην χρησιμοποιούμε το μητρώο της ΕΣΥΕ, καθώς δεν έχει δημοσιευθεί σε ΦΕΚ

σχετικά με το "διευρωπαικο δίκτυο" αν αναφέρεσαι στους E-roads, όχι δεν υπάρχει ενιαία αντιμετώπιση (η κατηγορία δρόμου εξαρτάται από το εθνικό ή επαρχιακό δίκτυο που ανήκει και από τον χάρτη ΔΜΕΟ)

σχετικά με τα φορτηγά, ρίξε μια ματιά στα restrictions στο wiki του openstreetmap

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