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#1 2017-10-10 13:49:09

Ron-N
Member
Registered: 2017-10-09
Posts: 7

Updating WikiProject Israel

Hi

I've started updating the wiki page at WikiProject Israel.
I'd like it to include most of the relevant information and guidelines for Israeli mappers. Rendering examples should be taken from israelhiking.osm.org.il.

I'm adding relevant tags to the wiki by following the legend at IHM.

I think this somewhat elaborated wiki will bring more Israelis to map and to resolve issues on their own.

Please have a look at POIs and Barriers and let me know what you think.

Ron

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#2 2017-10-10 14:07:54

SafwatHalaby
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Registered: 2017-04-10
Posts: 447
Website

Re: Updating WikiProject Israel

Just copying over the current discussion from ROn's talk page, so that it continues here.

The POI table you added the WIkiproject Israel seems to contain regular POIs that are used the same worldwide. Is there any reason to include them specifically in the Israel Wiki? (And why did you choose those POIs specifically?) -- [[User:SafwatHalaby|SafwatHalaby]] ([[User talk:SafwatHalaby|talk]]) 10:38, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

- These POIs are frequently used in Israel. I'm following the map legend at israelhiking.osm.org.il. [[User:Ron-N|Ron-N]] ([[User talk:Ron-N|talk]]) 10:47, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

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#3 2017-10-10 14:23:53

SafwatHalaby
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Registered: 2017-04-10
Posts: 447
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Re: Updating WikiProject Israel

These POIs are frequently used everywhere. In my opinion there's no special reason to put them in the IL wiki.

Also, the hiking map has a built-in legend with rendering symbols.

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#4 2017-10-10 14:37:14

Ron-N
Member
Registered: 2017-10-09
Posts: 7

Re: Updating WikiProject Israel

Finding out what tag should be used to create a certain icon is deterring and time consuming given the enormous variety of tags on the international OSM. I want to have a reduced list, especially one that shows the IHM rendering (rendering easily read by Israelis).

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#5 2017-10-10 15:48:56

Harel M
Member
From: Israel
Registered: 2013-04-14
Posts: 49
Website

Re: Updating WikiProject Israel

Nice work Ron!
I agree that the wiki page should contain tags that are commonly used in Israel, much like what was there with the roads tags.
I'm not sure an Icon is needed and it might also change, a picture might be better or even a link to the osm page that describes the feature.
There is a feature request for the legend to show the relevant osm tagging here:
https://github.com/IsraelHikingMap/Site/issues/396
I think it will be better to address it in the legend than in this page.
Note that there are tags that do not appear in OSM such as waterhole and flowers which are important to add to this wiki page, I think.

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#6 2017-10-10 18:04:49

zstadler
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Registered: 2012-05-05
Posts: 336
Website

Re: Updating WikiProject Israel

I wonder to what extend the use of English rather than Hebrew is for the good of the Israeli community. Other countries, and Germany in particular, use their native language.

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#7 2017-10-10 18:06:19

SafwatHalaby
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Registered: 2017-04-10
Posts: 447
Website

Re: Updating WikiProject Israel

Ron-N wrote:

Finding out what tag should be used to create a certain icon is deterring and time consuming given the enormous variety of tags on the international OSM. I want to have a reduced list, especially one that shows the IHM rendering (rendering easily read by Israelis).

Ok. Thanks for the edits and welcome to the forum smile

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#8 2017-10-11 12:19:47

Ron-N
Member
Registered: 2017-10-09
Posts: 7

Re: Updating WikiProject Israel

Harel M wrote:

Nice work Ron!
I agree that the wiki page should contain tags that are commonly used in Israel, much like what was there with the roads tags.
I'm not sure an Icon is needed and it might also change, a picture might be better or even a link to the osm page that describes the feature.
There is a feature request for the legend to show the relevant osm tagging here:
https://github.com/IsraelHikingMap/Site/issues/396
I think it will be better to address it in the legend than in this page.
Note that there are tags that do not appear in OSM such as waterhole and flowers which are important to add to this wiki page, I think.

I think icons would help locate the required POI quickly. In my opinion, pictures and text take longer to comprehend. For example, if I want to map ruins, it would be faster for me to locate the ruins icon than to go over a list of words and pictures and find the specific word used for that tag (it might as well be debris, rubble, wreck or wreckage) or to understand that one of the pictures depicts ruins. So even an outdated icon is preferable.
Links to OSM wiki are already there, because I'm using OSM wiki links for all tags and keys.
Regarding the legend tooltip - this would be great, but as @zstadler mentioned on the github thread, some icons require complex sets of tags, therefore the full info should be on the Israel wiki, while the tooltip will improve the workflow for simpler cases.
Regarding missing POIs - I will add all IHM legend entries to the wiki. Please feel free to suggest additional tags to be mentioned.

zstadler wrote:

I wonder to what extend the use of English rather than Hebrew is for the good of the Israeli community. Other countries, and Germany in particular, use their native language.

I will translate the entire wiki page to Hebrew once I finish the current set of changes.

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#9 2017-10-11 13:40:51

SafwatHalaby
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Registered: 2017-04-10
Posts: 447
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Re: Updating WikiProject Israel

Perhaps we should wait a bit before translating to see what the other editors think? Israel may be a special case where there's a large amount of Arabic/Russian speaking people who may prefer English. I can't tell how many of them are contributing, though...

Last edited by SafwatHalaby (2017-10-11 13:41:05)

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#10 2017-10-11 15:28:51

Ron-N
Member
Registered: 2017-10-09
Posts: 7

Re: Updating WikiProject Israel

The Hebrew translation will appear on a separate place (here).

I'd like to have consensus on the English version before I start translating to Hebrew. Unfortunately I speak only two languages...

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#11 2017-10-11 15:52:38

Harel M
Member
From: Israel
Registered: 2013-04-14
Posts: 49
Website

Re: Updating WikiProject Israel

Looks good!
I can't currently think of anything that is missing.
In case I'll find something that is missing, I'll add it to both languages.

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#12 2017-10-11 16:20:06

SafwatHalaby
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Registered: 2017-04-10
Posts: 447
Website

Re: Updating WikiProject Israel

Looks good. We'll have to make sure both versions are kept in sync.

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#13 2017-10-11 16:53:32

Ron-N
Member
Registered: 2017-10-09
Posts: 7

Re: Updating WikiProject Israel

Can I use the IHM legend rendering examples (licence wise and technically)?

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#14 2017-10-11 16:58:08

Harel M
Member
From: Israel
Registered: 2013-04-14
Posts: 49
Website

Re: Updating WikiProject Israel

Sure.

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#15 2017-10-11 19:23:11

dsh4
Member
Registered: 2017-06-24
Posts: 66

Re: Updating WikiProject Israel

SafwatHalaby wrote:

Looks good. We'll have to make sure both versions are kept in sync.

Right: we should prevent a situation where each translation of the page has different content.  Maybe the English version of the page can be the master version?

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#16 2017-10-28 11:37:43

Ron-N
Member
Registered: 2017-10-09
Posts: 7

Re: Updating WikiProject Israel

Hey everyone,

I've finished a major edit of WikiProject Israel page. In terms of mapping guidelines and convention - there is supposed to be no change whatsoever.

The following steps would be:
1. Adding rendering examples.
2. Going over all the existing text and resolving all unclear and incorrect information.
3. Translation to Hebrew.

Your help would be much appreciated.

Thanks

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#17 2017-10-28 13:04:06

SafwatHalaby
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Registered: 2017-04-10
Posts: 447
Website

Re: Updating WikiProject Israel

2. Going over all the existing text and resolving all unclear and incorrect information.

There's potentially a minor issue with our track guidelines. Our conventions are "track is always dirt". See this: https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/31346575.

Also, not really "incorrect" information, but a nice enhancement: We've previously agreed adding an photo example for every common road type would be a nice thing to have to help people orient themselves and choose the right tags. This is particularly relevant for highway tags that confuse new mapper like path, footway, cycleway, track.

No one has done this yet.

Last edited by SafwatHalaby (2017-10-28 13:05:30)

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#18 2017-10-28 13:31:31

dsh4
Member
Registered: 2017-06-24
Posts: 66

Re: Updating WikiProject Israel

SafwatHalaby wrote:

There's potentially a minor issue with our track guidelines. Our conventions are "track is always dirt". See this: https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/31346575.

To spell out the issue: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Wik … Road_Types specifies that highway=track is always unpaved, but https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway=track specifies that highway=track is "usually unpaved (unsealed) but may apply to paved tracks as well" (which can be tagged as surface=paved).  Moreover, the Israeli guidelines specify that highway=unclassified includes agricultural and forest roads, but https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag … classified specifically excludes "agricultural tracks".

An example is https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/346149552 (see also discussion in the linked changeset): it is currently tagged as highway=unclassified, correctly according to Israeli guidelines but incorrectly according to international ones, and the suggestion was to convert it to highway=track, correct according to international guidelines but incorrect according to Israeli ones.

How shall we resolve these conflicting guidelines?

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#19 2017-10-28 13:35:11

dsh4
Member
Registered: 2017-06-24
Posts: 66

Re: Updating WikiProject Israel

Personally, I think the international guidelines should trump.  The strength of OSM is that it uses just one data model for the entire world; if every country started using its own rules then the ecosystem wouldn't be able to thrive.

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#20 2017-10-28 14:28:03

zstadler
Member
Registered: 2012-05-05
Posts: 336
Website

Re: Updating WikiProject Israel

The wiki for highway=unclassified clearly states that:

Physically, the roads which should be tagged in OSM as highway=unclassified can vary greatly between countries, and even between areas in the same country. However, within the same local area, physical comparisons can be made to decide the level of importance. Use the mapping customs in your own country, together with your knowledge and judgement.

In other words, there is no internationsl guideline for unclassified roads that is in conflict with the local guidelines. On the contrary. There was an intentional lack of intent for international guidelines to take precedence over country or regional guidelines.

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#21 2017-10-28 14:45:41

SafwatHalaby
Member
Registered: 2017-04-10
Posts: 447
Website

Re: Updating WikiProject Israel

Do we have a special need that requires different rules?

In some African countries where nothing is paved, what we tag as "unclassified" could get tagged as "primary", I can see the *need* for different rules there.

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#22 2017-10-28 14:53:53

SafwatHalaby
Member
Registered: 2017-04-10
Posts: 447
Website

Re: Updating WikiProject Israel

It appears the highway tag is solely for the *road importance* relative to the road grid. Different highway tags imply different paving statuses in different countries, and those paving statuses can be overridden explicitly, but the main message of the highway tag is the road importance.

Our guidelines imply: "track and unclassified are exactly the same importance-wise, but one is paved and the other is not", thus we killed the importance aspect between the two tags.

So perhaps "Physically, the roads which should be tagged in OSM as highway=unclassified can vary greatly between countries" was interpreted too liberally.

Last edited by SafwatHalaby (2017-10-28 14:55:17)

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#23 2017-10-28 15:17:23

SafwatHalaby
Member
Registered: 2017-04-10
Posts: 447
Website

Re: Updating WikiProject Israel

Let me expand on my previous point with a practical example. Let's assume renderers mark "unclassified" more prominently than "track".

This unpaved road connects Daliyat el Carmel to Ein Hod. Internationally it'd be "unclassified" and would be  rendered more prominently than the surrounding tracks because it's more important in the road grid, but our guidelines make it look just like any nearby track.

Even worse, if there had been a paved but barely used forest track nearby, our guidelines mandate tagging it as "unclassified", making it look more prominant on the map than the relatively important village-connecting road.

PS. the only reason the road looks special on Mapnik is because the forest nearby was mapped more precisely around it. The track line itself is identical to the nearby tracks

PS2. it's a non-important road in the "grand scheme of things" but it is the most important in the area when it comes to the routing grid.

Last edited by SafwatHalaby (2017-10-28 15:23:21)

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#24 2017-11-06 07:20:40

SafwatHalaby
Member
Registered: 2017-04-10
Posts: 447
Website

Re: Updating WikiProject Israel

I think I'll later open a dedicated thread for the unclassified vs track issue.

I'm still a tiny bit uncomfortable with adding lists of POIs that are not special or specific to Israel. It feels a bit like tagging/documenting for the IHM renderer. Although I don't mind or oppose this in isolation, I think we should remember that the Wiki is about OSM and not IHM, and we shouldn't over-fill it with too many IHM-specific sections in the future.

(Also, I think most of those are already present in the IHM מקרא list, and maybe we should add the OSM tags into that list)

Last edited by SafwatHalaby (2017-11-06 07:29:01)

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#25 2017-11-06 07:44:37

zstadler
Member
Registered: 2012-05-05
Posts: 336
Website

Re: Updating WikiProject Israel

SafwatHalaby wrote:

"Tagging for the rendered" says "Don't deliberately enter data incorrectly for the renderer". [my emphasis]

IHM and its team are actively promoting correct mapping.

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