[closed] Internationale Admingrenzen 2016

May be, this is ok?

First: it’s no part of Morocco
2.nd : it’s a part of Western Sahara controlled by the Polisario

May be, we let a gap there? Better than the actual situation.

Or as disputed area inside of Western Sahara?

not shure of that

Regards
walter

There are many maps that feature Western Sahara as a country… However, if we want to keep to OSM standards, knowing that Kosovo is admin_level=2, SADR, South Ossetia, and Abkhazia should be returned as countries (admin_level=2).

@EzekielT (re admin_level=2) these all need to be considered on a case-by-case basis. Simon posted this somewhere (probably IRC) recently and it’s a good explainer if you haven’t seen it already:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AivEQmfPpk

In the case of Kosovo, you can read back up this thread (actually last year’s thread) for the discussion. The status of places like Transnistria and the “frozen conflict” remnants south of Russia is more complicated, but the last time I looked, the situation there was no more confusing that the actual situation on the ground. It’s difficult for OSM to “get it right” all of the time (for example, I see some comedian has changed Sealand http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/363076217 back to admin_level=2) but we can try - and about the only certainty is that if someone offers a glib statement that says “it’s obvious, problematical area X is obviously a country” is that they’re almost definitely wrong, or at least haven’t thought about it enough.

That’s why in the case of Western Sahara I’m trying to get opinions from all sides - the “desired situations of the various protagonists” obviously differ from each other, but these both also as I undertand it differ from the UN’s official position and those all differ from the situation on the ground - and individual states’ positions are also tempered by their need to work with other states “on the other side” of the Western Sahara conflict due to common interests elsewhere, so “what they say” may not match “what they do”.

For a more in-depth read on how this works in the real world, maybe have a read of https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/07/-sp-how-to-talk-to-terrorists-isis-al-qaida (and ignore the clickbait headline - the article goes on to discuss why “terrorist” isn’t a particularly useful word here).

@wambacher (re “the gap”) Various people have in the past had a go at mapping the “restricted areas” (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Zone_%28region%29 for info). I’m not sure what remains of them in OSM - If anyone wants to make a border recommendation based on them, great - but I suspect it’ll be the people in this thread who’ll be maintaining it :slight_smile:

Moin,

hier die aktuelle Missing Boundaries-Auswertung: https://osm.wno-edv-service.de/index.php/10-osm-reports/645-countries-compare-2016-08-06

Der Datenstand ist von 2016-08-05 23:06:02+02

15 Missings und 4 kritische Multipolygone.

Gruss
walter

Without a solution, which is accepted by the majority of the community and which is enforced by the DWG, it will be impossible for us to keep this version alive. The local community of morocco is doing everything, including using socket puppets, to revert any change on “their” view of the situation. Without any word.

i.g we have dwg “support” for the current boundaries in Israel/Palestine, the crimean area and some more. Every political motivated edit may be revertet to get the actual state. If it is necessary, we’ll ask dwg. And they do help.

regards
walter

btw: did the local Mapper contact you?

So,

Step 1: We need an agreement those pro-Moroccans… first. The agreement them would either include that we can add SADR to OSM, or that they can’t delete the SADR without discussion (or both). This agreement would be via messages.

Step 2: Request opinion from the community.

Step 3: Edit with caution. Undelete the SADR.

Step 4: If a pro-Moroccan that’s not in the agreement comes and deletes the SADR without discussion… well, the community decides.

Step 5: If one pro-Moroccan in the agreement deletes the SADR again without discussion, it would be avoiding the agreement they made. Contact as many editors as you can contact.

Moin,

hier die aktuelle Missing Boundaries-Auswertung: https://osm.wno-edv-service.de/index.php/10-osm-reports/646-countries-compare-2016-08-07

Der Datenstand ist von 2016-08-06 22:28:02+02

17 Missings und kein kritisches Multipolygon.

Gruss
walter

Moin,

hier die aktuelle Missing Boundaries-Auswertung: https://osm.wno-edv-service.de/index.php/10-osm-reports/647-countries-compare-2016-08-08

Der Datenstand ist von 2016-08-07 20:26:02+02

26 Missings und kein kritisches Multipolygon.

Algerien hat es erwischt. Ich hoffe, dass das nicht unsere marokkanischen “Freunde” waren :wink:

Gruss
walter

There isn’t a border in the EU relation. Why? Because the admin_level is missing.

It should be admin_level=1, according to the wiki.

@SomeoneElse: Hi Andy,

what is the actual situation and what will happen next?

Regards
walter

@wambacher I’ll give everyone a bit more time to respond (we’re still getting replies in in dribs and drabs). I’ll probably send a reminder to some of those that haven’t replied yet that we’d like their opinion too.

Thanks. I’ll try to write down “my way”.
Is there any possibility to see the responses? don’t think so, because there are too many comm channels right now. which one do you prefer?

@wambacher Some of the respondents have requested anonymity, so the I’ll paraphrase the actual responses to try and prevent anyone being identified against their will. An email to data@osmfoundation.org is least likely to be forgotten, but other methods would work too.

Moin,

hier die aktuelle Missing Boundaries-Auswertung: https://osm.wno-edv-service.de/index.php/10-osm-reports/649-countries-compare-2016-08-10

Der Datenstand ist von 2016-08-09 23:16:03+02

17 Missings und ein kritisches Multipolygon.

Gruss
walter

Moin,

hier die aktuelle Missing Boundaries-Auswertung: https://osm.wno-edv-service.de/index.php/10-osm-reports/650-countries-compare-2016-08-11

Der Datenstand ist von 2016-08-10 19:18:02+02

42 Missings und kein kritisches Multipolygon.

Gruss
walter

@SomeoneElse

Hi Andy,

i’m really confused about Western Sahara. Some say, it’s Morocco and some say, it’s not. And i can’t decide (even for me) which is ok. :frowning:
SADC is not controlled by Morocco but it’s not a “real” country.

Solutions:

a) Morroco and Westen Sahara are split like here:


SADC is part of Western Sahara.

b) only one Morocco

This is the current OSM data

c) one Morocco without SADC

This was OSM at April 2016

I prefer solution one, because Morocco annected the ex spanish colony and that is not accepted by the UN.
On the other side, Western Sahara has been accepted by about 50 nations.

################################## CUT #################################

The current maroccanian borders (AL2) do not exclude the spanish exclaves Melilla, Ceouta ans some smaller island in the area. The Boundaries are existing (e.g. https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/44630799)), but they are no “inner” on Morocco, which is wrong.

And more:

The areas of Merilla and Ceuto do not include the 12NM maritime boundary, but the coastline has been used. I think, that is wrong too.

Regards
Walter

Moin,

spät, aber zumindest durchgelaufen. Hatte heute früh Rechnerprobleme :frowning:

hier die aktuelle Missing Boundaries-Auswertung: https://osm.wno-edv-service.de/index.php/10-osm-reports/651-countries-compare-2016-08-12

Der Datenstand ist von 2016-08-11 23:42:02+02

15 Missings und drei kritische Multipolygone.

Gruss
walter

Moin,

hier die aktuelle Missing Boundaries-Auswertung: https://osm.wno-edv-service.de/index.php/10-osm-reports/652-countries-compare-2016-08-13

Der Datenstand ist von 2016-08-12 20:20:02+02

10 Missings und kein kritisches Multipolygon.

Gruss
walter

Moin,

hier die aktuelle Missing Boundaries-Auswertung: https://osm.wno-edv-service.de/index.php/10-osm-reports/653-countries-compare-2016-08-14

Der Datenstand ist von 2016-08-14 01:06:03+02

10 Missings und ein kritisches Multipolygon.

Gruss
walter