[closed] Internationale Admingrenzen 2016

Die Enklaven selbst sind natürlich auch “strittig” (wie auch mehrere kleine Inseln), aber da haben sie sich nicht getraut to Grenzen zu entfernen.

Das hätte aber mächtig Ärger gegeben. Zudem existiert da ein hoher Grenzzaun https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melilla#Migration_nach_Europa an der stark befestigten Grenze, die die Spanier wohl heftig verteidigen würden (im Real Live und bei OSM). Liegt da nicht auch die EU-Aussengrenze?

Gruss
walter

Klar, aber ich bin ziemlich sicher, dass die Anhänger der Gross-Marokko Idee im wesentlichen alle aktuellen Grenzen von Marokko bestreiten …

Der von SomeoneElese angeschriebene Mapper - wohl aus der Gegend - mappt übrigens fleissig weiter (“harmlose” Sachen), scheint es aber nicht nötig zu erachten, in die Diskussion einzusteigen. Passt zu dem, was ich von ihm schon öfters beobachtet habe.

Mal sehen, wie es weitergeht

Gruss
walter

@SomeoneElse: The mapper is still active (minor uncritical edits) but did not enter the discussion yet.
May be, he contacted DWG per mail? Can’t believe that.

and what will happen (tomorrow?) when he still did not answer?

Regards
walter

@wambacher As can be seen from http://resultmaps.neis-one.org/osm-discussions#2/36.0/-10.4 I did send out a large number of “please let the DWG know what you think” messages. A couple of the mappers concerned have been in contact with the DWG directly by mail or OSM message, but not many yet. Obviously we’ll give everyone a few more days to make sure that everyone has a chance to put their views across.

I don’t expect that we will be redrawing the boundaries of anywhere tomorrow, and given holidays and other commitments it may well be a couple of weeks away.

Great. The boundaries have been deleted about 4 month ago and you are right: there is no need to rush.

regards
walter

Actually, one part of the “Western Sahara” question that I haven’t had a lot of feedback on yet was the third part:

As I understand it (based on reading about the situation, not on any local knowledge) the Polisario / SADR control east of the “Moroccan Wall” may not include the normal trappings of a state - as I understand it their HQ and media are actually based in Algeria - any more up-to-date information gratefully received.

Moin,

hier die aktuelle Missing Boundaries-Auswertung: https://osm.wno-edv-service.de/index.php/10-osm-reports/644-countries-compare-2016-08-05

Der Datenstand ist von 2016-08-05 02:05:01+02

9 Missings und kein kritisches Multipolygon.

Großbritannien hat es erwischt. Blödsinn, die Auswertung war da noch nicht vorbei gekommen,

Gruss
walter

Well, the last thing we saw on this issue was 4rch giving up, after maybe 10 times restoring the border. The people who deleted it are pro-Moroccan. We need someone in between.

Maybe someone can message the pro-Moroccans and see if they are okay with restoring the border.

May be, this is ok?

First: it’s no part of Morocco
2.nd : it’s a part of Western Sahara controlled by the Polisario

May be, we let a gap there? Better than the actual situation.

Or as disputed area inside of Western Sahara?

not shure of that

Regards
walter

There are many maps that feature Western Sahara as a country… However, if we want to keep to OSM standards, knowing that Kosovo is admin_level=2, SADR, South Ossetia, and Abkhazia should be returned as countries (admin_level=2).

@EzekielT (re admin_level=2) these all need to be considered on a case-by-case basis. Simon posted this somewhere (probably IRC) recently and it’s a good explainer if you haven’t seen it already:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AivEQmfPpk

In the case of Kosovo, you can read back up this thread (actually last year’s thread) for the discussion. The status of places like Transnistria and the “frozen conflict” remnants south of Russia is more complicated, but the last time I looked, the situation there was no more confusing that the actual situation on the ground. It’s difficult for OSM to “get it right” all of the time (for example, I see some comedian has changed Sealand http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/363076217 back to admin_level=2) but we can try - and about the only certainty is that if someone offers a glib statement that says “it’s obvious, problematical area X is obviously a country” is that they’re almost definitely wrong, or at least haven’t thought about it enough.

That’s why in the case of Western Sahara I’m trying to get opinions from all sides - the “desired situations of the various protagonists” obviously differ from each other, but these both also as I undertand it differ from the UN’s official position and those all differ from the situation on the ground - and individual states’ positions are also tempered by their need to work with other states “on the other side” of the Western Sahara conflict due to common interests elsewhere, so “what they say” may not match “what they do”.

For a more in-depth read on how this works in the real world, maybe have a read of https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/07/-sp-how-to-talk-to-terrorists-isis-al-qaida (and ignore the clickbait headline - the article goes on to discuss why “terrorist” isn’t a particularly useful word here).

@wambacher (re “the gap”) Various people have in the past had a go at mapping the “restricted areas” (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Zone_%28region%29 for info). I’m not sure what remains of them in OSM - If anyone wants to make a border recommendation based on them, great - but I suspect it’ll be the people in this thread who’ll be maintaining it :slight_smile:

Moin,

hier die aktuelle Missing Boundaries-Auswertung: https://osm.wno-edv-service.de/index.php/10-osm-reports/645-countries-compare-2016-08-06

Der Datenstand ist von 2016-08-05 23:06:02+02

15 Missings und 4 kritische Multipolygone.

Gruss
walter

Without a solution, which is accepted by the majority of the community and which is enforced by the DWG, it will be impossible for us to keep this version alive. The local community of morocco is doing everything, including using socket puppets, to revert any change on “their” view of the situation. Without any word.

i.g we have dwg “support” for the current boundaries in Israel/Palestine, the crimean area and some more. Every political motivated edit may be revertet to get the actual state. If it is necessary, we’ll ask dwg. And they do help.

regards
walter

btw: did the local Mapper contact you?

So,

Step 1: We need an agreement those pro-Moroccans… first. The agreement them would either include that we can add SADR to OSM, or that they can’t delete the SADR without discussion (or both). This agreement would be via messages.

Step 2: Request opinion from the community.

Step 3: Edit with caution. Undelete the SADR.

Step 4: If a pro-Moroccan that’s not in the agreement comes and deletes the SADR without discussion… well, the community decides.

Step 5: If one pro-Moroccan in the agreement deletes the SADR again without discussion, it would be avoiding the agreement they made. Contact as many editors as you can contact.

Moin,

hier die aktuelle Missing Boundaries-Auswertung: https://osm.wno-edv-service.de/index.php/10-osm-reports/646-countries-compare-2016-08-07

Der Datenstand ist von 2016-08-06 22:28:02+02

17 Missings und kein kritisches Multipolygon.

Gruss
walter

Moin,

hier die aktuelle Missing Boundaries-Auswertung: https://osm.wno-edv-service.de/index.php/10-osm-reports/647-countries-compare-2016-08-08

Der Datenstand ist von 2016-08-07 20:26:02+02

26 Missings und kein kritisches Multipolygon.

Algerien hat es erwischt. Ich hoffe, dass das nicht unsere marokkanischen “Freunde” waren :wink:

Gruss
walter

There isn’t a border in the EU relation. Why? Because the admin_level is missing.

It should be admin_level=1, according to the wiki.