I will go with that, and I will gradually phase out “refs” for Provincial roads only. However, I think we should consider developing our own tileset that renders the “regional refs”: see https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/dev/2016-March/029153.html – the nice thing about OSM is that you can do anything with the data.
As for the relations, I chose “(Prefecture) Provincial Road (Number)” and “National Road (Number) ((Location)-(Location) section)” because it is the clearest description possible, and it would help editors find the relations easily.
The Greek equivalents are “(Prefecture) Επαρχιακή Οδός (Number)” and Εθνική Οδός 33 (Number) (τμήμα (Location)-(Location)) respectively.
If we manage to fill the tables that i made then refs will phase out. You are welcome to help filling those tables, if you want to. We’ve started (me and JayCBR) from Aetolia-Acarnania table.
As for the tileset, i think you are going to need a server (or rent one) with a static IP address, and you need to do some research in order to setup the software for the tile set server.
I know why you chose that scheme, but there is no need to write all these informations in realtions. That’s why i’ve started this database-like project (i hope that you’ve visited it) about provincial roads, and if we manage to finish it, no editor will ever need to search an find prov. roads in overpass-turbo or in OSM. He will just click on a relation in the corresponding table and he will find the road he is looking for. This project will make things easier for everyone.
I know some users (not naming anyone out of courtesy) don’t read the wiki before editing the relations, and I consider the need to prevent accidental deletions or incorrect edits because of misunderstanding by any future editors.
For example, in London, I developed the naming scheme of, for example, “London Buses route 30 → Marble Arch” (see http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/London_public_transport_tagging_scheme#Bus_routes)) so to alert future editors (that do not know about the existence of the wiki yet) that it should not cover both directions, and so that they do not confuse it with any other type of route that happens to have the same number.
I do not expect everyone to have read the wiki, page by page, before editing, so this is why I developed a clearer name scheme so that future editors can understand quickly that the relation we are rebuilding are Provincial Roads even if they do not know yet that the wiki exists.
Each relation has a ref, an ΕΠ# (for prov.raods) and an EO# (for nat.roads), so everyone can understand quickly if a relation we are rebuilding is a Provincial Road or a national road. I’ve already thought of that.
Prefecture names can be usefull in provincial relations, but not in the realtion name tag. The name tag must be kept “clean”.
I think its better to use the is_in tag (in the relation), eg is_in=Μακεδονία without the word “Νομός”. That will help if someone wants to search for a road eg. in overpass-turbo.
May I see an example of what you are thinking of? Thanks in advance.
However, if we are to tag provincial road ways with reg_ref instead of ref, then we should use reg_ref for relations as well, for sake of consistency and simplicity. Likewise, if we were to use ref for relations then we should use ref on the ways.
Please repost the relation link because is broken.
Do you can see how long “Attica Provincial Road #” is? Researchers can just put the “reg_ref #” and “is_in” keys (eg in overpass-turbo) and they will find what they want to.
It is meant that researchers don’t use names as it is a stupid thing to do. Anyone can put any name in the name tag, so the standard procedure is to search by ref tags.(or by reg_ref in our case)
I think this is the end of our conversation. (what ΕΠ and ΕΟ refs mean?). Additionally we are off topic here.
Regarding the Road network, if you click on each stretch on the map, you can get its road number. This might help us in piecing together the current road network. However, some National Roads only have “X” numbers: how do we address these?
i havent seen this…thats a good find…i imagine is the same as the wms file…the problem i noticed is some new and old roads have the same number, highway branches with the same numbers as the parent national highways (omitting letters α,β,γ etc)…x numbers are new unnumbered sections mentioned in the 1998 ΕΣΥΕ document but never used (like Thermopyles - Mpralos - Amfissa - Itea - Antirrio), Mpralos - Amfissa is EO27, Amfissa - Livadeia is EO48, i really dont know about the rest…i suppose EO27
Yes i know that. If you can work with the wms layer in a GIS programm its even better.
X-numbers in wms are either un-numbered roads on new alignments. In some cases these new alignments have replaced old alignments, but officially are un-numbered roads. Anyway, because this is a bit complicated, and these roads must be evaluated by case, please post an example:
Find an x-number road in wms, then find that road in OSM and then post the link to that road here. Then i will post my opinion about that particular road.
In theory Λεωφόρος Σχιστού has replaced a part of ΕΠ14 and in theory should have ref=ΕΠ14. But this road, officially, is part of the secondary national network, so it cant have an ΕΠ# ref tag. Therefor, there is no need to use a ref tag.
We should use both ref and reg_ref (as indicated), since it is unlikely that we would drop one or the other. I accept that you do want reg_ref, but I also prefer ref, because OKXE uses the same key, “ar_odoy”, for both national and provincial roads.
However, ref and reg_ref does not have to be the same: I was thinking that ref=“XX-##” (XX being the province ISO code) if reg_ref=“ΕΠ#”. e.g. when reg_ref is “ΕΠ1” in Elis, the ref would be “14-01”.
we talked about provincial road refs again and again and we decided reg_ref is the best solution as provincial road numbers exist purely on paper, the important thing here is to know you are on a provincial road (highway=secondary) that leads somewhere (a destination specified in the name)
reg_ref is already a compromise for me…i didnt want to map provincial roads at all
about the road numbers i think is best to stick with ΕΠ# now we already started with it, but i would discuss using the 4-digit numbers from OKXE
PS: you shouldnt edit the wiki before we agree on something
My previous post has been made redundant by subsequent discussion with JayCBR - Indeed, reg_ref and not ref for the ways, but maintain ref for relations only, which do not render on the map but helps advanced data users studying our network in detail (remember that drivers are not the only users of OSM ). I think that will do for now – I think we’ll leave the four digit numbers for later, before it overwhelms us like avalanches!
). I think that will do for now – I think we’ll leave the four digit numbers for later, before it overwhelms us like avalanches!