Road Classification System (talk & poll)

please take a look at Trikala at about 1:500m zoom, i think this is the proper way to do city roads;EO30 originally passed through city center, now you can use the ring road instead, this route can be primary with ref=EO30 and the old one to be secondary with old_ref, the same goes with EO6 bypassing Trikala, so there is no need for primaries in city center

@JayCBR, as the map of Trikala stands at 1517 EEST, it looks fine since I have always favoured making use of the bypasses.

However, I would be open to shifting Secondary National roads to trunk and Tertiary National roads to secondary since 90% of all Primary National Roads are motorways, thereby restoring the distinction between Tertiary National roads and all Provincial Roads. it seems to me that Primary National roads are another name for Motorways.

Also, I would favour restoring single relations for each numbered National Road, because the start and end destinations can vary depending on how big you see the country (e.g. Athens-Lamia as opposed to Athens-Thessaloniki).

Another question, are the OKHE layers compatible with ODbL or exempt from copyright as a government document?

My thoughts for the classification discussion flowchart:

  1. Basic system for classified roads.
  2. Basic system for unclassified roads.
  3. Refining of system to prevent orphaned roads
  4. Role of bypasses and realignments.
  5. Layout of roads in Central Athens and Thessaloniki.
  6. Junction layouts – at-grade and grade separated.

About Trikala

I agree with this classification. Map is not confusing and routing seems to work well too.

But i disagree about road names. We should use local names.
Παλαιά Εθνική Οδός 6 should be Λαρίσης all the way through Megalochori and Παλαιά Εθνική Οδός 30 should be Πύλης. These are the local names.

I was thinking that bypasses shouldn’t have a ref tag. But if we see refs as routes (not roads), then yes they can have a ref tag if a route (ref) is going through this bypass.

For example, now ref EO30 is going through Trikala bypass, so this bypass can have a ref tag.
And the old route through the city of Trikala can have an old_ref tag. (as it is now).

@Amaroussi
I disagree about shifting Secondary National roads to trunk because as a result we will end up with too many trunk roads. Imagine a tourist that sees our map, he will think that Greece is a road paradise. :slight_smile:
I agree about single relations.

Hi,

In reply to JayCBR about national highways not being “continuous”, virtually every country trunk or primary routes that requires drivers to make turns and roundabouts to continue along the same route. For example, in Germany (http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=14/52.4047/12.5558), where drivers on the Bundesroute 1 needs to make turns to continue.

It is only the motorways that are usually continuous in many countries, and therefore I cannot see how such obstacles like roundabout is enough a rationale to split the relations of, for example, EO7 or EO2.

we are on the same page here, local names always have priority over national or provincial…these roads had no local names before, and i wasn’t sure of them

OKXE licence is here http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/gr/

I agree.

There are some rooads of the secondary provincial network that are dirt roads. How should we tag them?
I think that secondary tag is too much for them.
Should we map them? or not map them at all?
Any opinions?

PS. I’m thinking about changing my vote for secondary provincial roads.

i think highway=unclassified and surface=unpaved is the way to go and maybe use highway=track when the road is too bad for street cars, while retaining the name and ref

I would make all provincial roads secondary by default, unless totally impassable; in which case, I think we could use a lower classification, and also “note:highway”, “surface” and “smoothness” to explain to future editors, why it could not be secondary.

I agree with both of you. I think that highway=unclassified (for dirt roads) is the way to go, with other subsidiary tags like surface or smoothness.
If the road is too bad for street cars, i think that must be tagged as track. (as JayCBR said).

There is a new document about Provincial roads ESYE/2011

Hi, looking at that WMS layer, I am starting to think that nearly all of Primary National Road Network are slated to become motorways, which would leave the trunk level virtually unused.

We could shift Secondary National roads to trunk and Tertiary National roads to secondary, thereby restoring the distinction between Tertiary National roads and all Provincial Roads.

Thats true, but.
In this table (Mimistry of Interior) you can see an official list of motorways and trunk(ταχείας κυκλοφορίας) roads. When these trunk roads become motorways there will be no trunk roads in Greece (officially).

i think using trunk for secondary national network is too much…in most countries, highway=trunk is used for expressways (οδοί ταχείας κυκλοφορίας), well here this is rather difficult to define (official sources are often contradicting and confusing), thats why i proposed for these roads to be trunk:motorway-like roads (these look more like expressways), roads planned to become motorways by ΦΕΚ 253ΑΑΠ/2015 and maybe large urban avenues (3+ lanes)

Hi,

I am sorry that I had to test your idea thoroughly, but what about:

  • Primary National Roads (e.g. EO1 from Chalastra to Polykastro);
  • Roads expecting to become motorways (e.g. EO8a);
  • Motorway-like roads (e.g. the former A65).

I think that a blanket rule of allowing only large urban avenues (3+ lanes) to be trunk may open way to the “orphaned” roads problem that I dreaded. The important concern I have is the problem of having sections of road of a given class (except Motorways, obviously) being unconnected to roads of the same class or better, as well as the problem with annoying short gaps of lower-class road between the roads of a given class.

Additionally, not all urban avenues always have 3+ continuous lanes each side.

this is exactly what i am talking about (edit: A65 and A52 are motorways, they just forgot to mention them)

i suppose you talk about urban roads;well we can decide which urban avenues to be trunk, so it can apply to all the length of it (Μεσογείων, Κηφισίας, Συγγρού, Ποσειδώνος, Κύμης, Βουλιαγμένης);this way no gaps exist, you know you are on a major avenue and looks more like a network

Please leave urban roads out of this topic. We will discuss about urban roads later in an other topic.

But Amaroussi is right about blanket rules. A blanket rule about motorway-like roads can not be applied, because eg. Karditsa – Trikala road is a motorway-like road but we can’t tag it as a trunk road because it will become an orphaned (island) road .

Just think that road networks are like pipe networks, and you will figure it out. Same principals apply. Sorry that i sound like an engineer but that’s my way of thinking because i am an engineer :slight_smile:

I happen to be a graphic designer too.

At present, the classification page (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Greece/Road_Network) states that tertiary roads are for “narrow or incomplete provincial roads”.

However but I think we aim to get as many provincial roads as possible to be secondary. I propose that the definition be modified to:

“impassable or restricted provincial roads”.

Examples of the restricted roads:

  • According to OKXE, Attica Provincial Road 14 passes through a military base between Perama and Skaramagas, which is not open to the public.
  • Hydra does not allow cars.

I am concerned that “narrow” may be interpreted by some as one lane only, which is very common in rural Greece. Therefore the term doesn’t look “watertight” in my opinion.

An alternative option would be to get rid of the existing phrase and replace “primary and secondary provincial network” with “all provincial roads, unless restricted to the public or unfit for motor vehicles”. This is because we may use a much lower classification for such roads.

I disagree about what provincial roads should be tertiary. I have already publicated a table about this here, the table under the map where it says “Classification complex examples”.

Are you saying that provincial roads should be tertiary only if they are impassable or restricted roads? That is absurd.

As for the phrase “narrow or incomplete provincial roads” at the road network classification page, i agree that it should be removed or replaced.

so my case is this:
-someone who drives on a secondary road should expect to lead somewhere (town, national highway, provincial road) and to be safe to drive (paved, reasonable width)…imagine you drive on a provincial road (highway=secondary) and suddenly the surface changes to dirt in the middle of nowhere, how would that feel?
-if all provincial roads are secondary, it would mess navigation as well (when you go somewhere, would you like the best route or any provincial road it finds around?)

so for us to have a proper network, i think is better for SOME provincial roads to be tertiary

if you think my definition in the wiki table is wrong you are free to change it