Dear friends,
I’m writing this lengthy post concerning the admin_level hierarchy in Greece because I strongly believe it needs an update to reflect the current state.
Sorry for writing in English as it was a request from user Amaroussi (https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Amaroussi) and also for the bad use of English language.
Without telling you the whole story, it seems that after doing some edits to fit “Αποκεντρωμένη διοίκηση xxx” in admin_level=3 there was a conflict with “Mount Athos” which is in the same admin_level. Also it seems that there are new levels documented in the wiki concerning only the area of Athens. And in the end the names of each level don’t reflect the current situation.
It seems that Amaroussi in his page http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Amaroussi#Greece_boundaries_review already has a suggestion.
Just to make things clear about my problem I will list what I found in lists and also in wikipedia:
- Greece
- Βόρεια Ελλάδα (http://www.mathra.gr/), Κεντρική Ελλάδα, Αττική, Νησιά Αιγαίου - Κρήτη.
3, Αποκεντρωμένη διοίκηση. - Πειφέρεια
- Περιφερειακή Ενότητα
- Δήμος
- Δημοτική Ενότητα
- Τοπική / Δημοτική Κοινότητα
- Άλλα
Can we have a discussion on the above list?
Which of the above are part of the hierarchy and which are not?
When we decide about the list can we give consecutive numbers based on the OSM schema (start with Greece in admin_level=2)?
And in the end can we use the current names of these levels? old_name=* can be used as a reference in some areas.
Also we have to consider Mount Athos as there is a thin line there.
We can’t give it admin_level=2 because we mess with global OSM data but also with admin_level=3 we mess with Greece’s data.
You know Mount Athos can have its own administrative hierarchy and that will mess with the admin_level=* in Greece.
Let me paste here some of my previous responses to Amaroussi:
“As it concerns Mount Athos, do you thing it should have his own admin_level? Will this represent reality better or leaving the place without admin_level would me more accurate. Or maybe use admin_level=2 as it will be surrounded by Greece’s admin_level=2 boundary? Do we have any other similar cases in the world, like lets say Vatican? Can we find any other examples of same administration? As I wrote you before it seems that in the official administrative levels of Greece there is no reference for Mount Athos at all.”
"Well, my only concern is that by giving any admin_level, other than 2, to Mount Athos then automatically becomes part of Greece’s administrative hierarchy, something that it’s not true (I think). In reality it’s part of Greece’s territory but Greek government has no saying on Mount Athos matters. They have some sort of their own government and maybe they have their own admin_levels inside their territory.
So as a first thought I think that admin_level=2 might be more appropriate but it’s a thin line there.
If we export data for admin_level=2 globally then it shows up as a country. If we export admin_level=3 in Greece then it shows up as part of Greece’s administrative hierarchy. And what if we put admin_level=4 inside Mount Athos to represent the land that each monastery owns ? If we export admin_level=4 for example from Greece won’t these areas mess up the exported data?
Maybe I have a problem understanding what administrative means but i think that it has to do with how we split our country in areas to organize things better. And Greek governments have a saying on Greece’s territory except from Mount Athos. That’s why in official lists and documents you don’t see any reference for Mount Athos.
I know that they are part of Greece, they are bound strongly to Greek matters, but here we are talking about categorization and how data are represented."
So, can we clarify somehow all the above.?
- Create a list with official administrative levels (e.g. no postal codes)
- Use consecutive numbers
- Use current official names
- Update the wiki.
And in the end, please don’t reply with post like “It’s too much work” or “things will change again” as the reason why not is easily explained (I think).
Please make proposals based on reality and on the OSM scheme.
I know I put a lot on the table but I won’t be available for a while, at least I won’t follow closely this forum, and I want to give a good starting point for a discussion.
Your thoughts ladies and gentlemen…