Military areas in Israel (remove or not remove?)

What kind of law are we talking about?

I’m no lawyer.

Try this http://www.nevo.co.il/law_html/law01/073_002.htm#Seif532

מסירת ידיעה לאויב [ד/21]
111. מי שביודעין מסר ידיעה לאויב או בשבילו, דינו - מאסר עשר שנים; היתה הידיעה עלולה להיות לתועלת האויב, דינו - מאסר חמש-עשרה שנה; התכוון בכך לפגוע בבטחון המדינה, דינו - מאסר עולם; גרם ברשלנות שתימסר לאויב או בשבילו ידיעה העלולה להיות לתועלתו, דינו - מאסר שלוש שנים.
ריגול [ד/22]

Here they are speaking about “Secret information”. I’m very unsure that road signs with military bases names may be categorized as such information…

I agree. Let’s see what Wikipod thinks.

It’s not classified as “secret”, but this information is still promlematic for being published in the internet. The porpuse of the signs is to guide soldiers to the bases (And that’s why these signs written only in Hebrew). When we take all of this signs and we map them, it’s may be problematic. I mean, it’s the same like the bases itselfs - IDF are not trying to hide most of their bases by the real world but they are trying to prevent people from mapping it so people who trying to harm Israeli Bases would work harder to do so. (That the basic idea stands behind)

Perhaps we should directly ask the “Head Censor” what is permitted.
In the meantime, Wikipod, are you OK with the training grounds and roads within bases.
Otherwise our enemies wold look for roads that appear in Google Sat images and not in OSM and figure out where the bases are ;).

Chief Censor Lt. Col. Sima Waknin Gil 057 8189051
General Office exchange:03-7605800/1, Designated Fax to submit articles: 03-7605879

Hi All,

I gather, from reading Wikipod’s posts, that it is illegal in Israel to publicly identify security installations.

Although it is my belief and hope that no one in the OSM community would want to jeopardize the security of civilians in any part of the world by exposing national safety apparatus, please allow me to remind you that OSM is not a regional platform but a universal open source initiative built and maintained by a collectivity of non-affiliated contributors. Wikipod is on a manic unilateral delete spree and he should be reasoned.

Let me share this story with you:

I was once arrested by an illiterate Afghan policeman because I was allegedly taking pictures of military installations in Kabul (basically there was a watchtower behind the three local ladies I had photographed). Once in custody, I explained through the various levels of the chain of command (mostly with sign language) that if one needed data about their set up, they wouldn’t use a 35mm non-reflex camera with 400 ASA black & white film… Well, it was nice to share the commanding officer’s meal while waiting for the senior intelligence officer to finally clear me.

Judging from his actions, I believe that Wikipod is not much more enlightened than the Afghan policeman I once cross path with. As this is more your hood than mine, I shall leave it to you guys to deal with this, hopefully in the spirit of an open source community.

Axelode

There are two different topics which are getting mixed-up in this thread:

  1. What can and cannot be mapped by Israeli Citizens
  2. Wikipod’s acceptance of the OSM rules and regulations

Based on Wikipods responses and actions, he does accept the OSM rules or the community view. What’s the point of negotiating the guidelines with a person who accepts only to his own guidelines?

Wikipod’s contribution to OSM does not earn him the right to vandalism - repeatedly removing correct and legally published information from the OSM database.

Let Wikipod first commit to accept the OSM guidelines and refraining for further unjustified deletions. Only then his opinions should be heard.

Ze’ev,
I really don’t know how do you base your claim. I did accepted OSM regulations, and there is no reference for deletion of information could damage country’s security.
Why we should not start discuss about your acceptance of your own country’s law before we’re talking about me? Do you know what are the implications of your dids?

Valleyofdawn,
Did you got answer from Chief Censor? It will be great if we get unequivocal answer about this topic.

Wikipod,

OSM expect everyone to increase the accuracy and correctness of the map, as described by the page on Vandalism. Your actions clearly did the opposit.

I fully obey my country’s laws.The area I mapped as military was published as such by official Israeli authorities including the Survey of Israel.
I will not publish a copy of the official “Israeli Trails” map that also shows the area as military. Such an act COULD be breaking the Israeli copyright law.

That did not prevent you from deleting it. The second time you deleted it was after you were shown that the information was already published by the Israeli government.

Evidently you are muli-talented:

A lawmaker - you set the rules on what should or should not be published, regardless of OSM rules or Israeli law. You know the Israeli interests better than the 120 members of the Knesset.
A censor - you decide what’s forbidden by your laws, including information approved by the Israeli military censorship and officially published by the Israeli government. Again, you know better than the appointed officials.
A policeman - you execute your decisions despite not receiving any empowerment for the OSM organization or the Israeli law enforcement agencies
A judge - you pass judgement on anyone objecting to your own decisions, reverting their actions, and accusing them of disobeying the law

Again, I suggest you resign from all the above roles and continue with the constructive work you’ve done for OSM Israel

Hello, I think one should obey the law you are put under. In most cases I guess it just means that you are not allowed to map some things, not that it is your duty to delete things. That is especially a question for yourself: “What laws are regulating me and what I map? Do I want to risk mapping something that could be illegal and can be have consequences for me?” In the end this is a very personal matter, but a more or less objectiv. You have to decide for yourself and have to take the responsibility.

The other thing is the problem not to put other people in danger. You can argue that mapping military facilities can help enemies attacking these sites. On the other hand, and as mentioned above, this can also apply to shopping malls, public transport and other stuff. So, who decides what to map and what not? In the end it is a very subjective issue. Also you have to concern, that a state can say a lot and sometimes exceeds its authority (I remember a case where a french intelligence service forced someone to delete a wikipedia article). If things are mapped that concern the security, I think, the state can take legal actions on this issue (which will lead to the passage above). And I think, if state authorities have evidence of OSM data threatens national security, they will take these legal actions. So if you have not heared from court decisions or similar in that direction, I would assume that there is no big problem with this data and would strongly recommend not to delete entries of military facilites and similar installations.

But that is just my opinion, I do not live in Israel and I am not threatend by rockets or suicide bombers. But as said, the israelian state takes so much effort to protect israelian citizens and soldiers (some would say too much) that, if OSM data would be a problem, you surely would notice that.

Kind regards from Germany

Going back to the issue.
For hikers/bikers/4Wdrivrs the main reason they should consider military bases is to understand where they can pass and where they can’t.
Do you think it makes sense and abides by the Israeli law to map the fences surrounding military bases without tagging the area as military or calling it by name?

I think a fence can be defined without defining area. So if there is a fence just tag it as fence.
As I’m against mapping military features, I would try to avoid putting a military area just because there is a fence :slight_smile:

Enjoy Life !

Isn’t that exactly what I suggested?!

Hehe,

yes :slight_smile:

A non-military fence does not imply access=no. On the other hand, most military firing zones (שטחי אש) do not have fences around them.

On the practical side, fences are not shown on most maps, including openstreetmap.org and opencyclemap.org. Pick your favorite fenced military site and see for yourself…

Zeev,

There was never an issue with firing zones, as they are not secret and appear in formal government maps such as govmap. Everyone should go ahead and map them. Since they cover a third of Israel or so I would recommend that your map doesn’t render them too intrusively.

Mapnik renders fences from Z=16 up, as you can see here: http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/31.7509/34.8631
Israel Hiking Map, as you know, does
Opencyclemap unfortunately does not, but it doesn’t render military areas either.
In fact, most OSM-based maps do not show military areas.

We can start by fencing off military ares, it is factually accurate, at least a little helpful, and poses no legal problems as far as I can tell.

If we ever reach a consensus on the military tag, we can easily add it later to the fence.

Best,
Guy

Guy,

You gave an excellent example. I believe no hiker looking at Mapnik would realize that this part of the forest is forbidden.

Given the danger of accidental entry to a firing zone, I believe that the rendering on the Israeli Hiking map is just right.

By the way, military areas are shown on the Israel Hiking map, just like viewpoints, camp sites, fences, and other features, because they provide value to hikers, bikers and 4WD travelers. I’m not running a campaign to map or not to map military areas of one kind or another.

Last days a user named Govanus mapped some bases in west-bank acoording to BeTzelem maps. I contacted him and asked to revert his edits. Same story again :rage:

And Ze’ev… Your map is really great but bases are target to terrorists same like camp sites are target to hikers. think about it.

Eliot,

I appreciate the positive feedback on the Israel Hiking map.

As for mapping of military areas, it seems to me that you, me, and everyone reading this thread understands the different opinions. I suggest we agree to disagree.