You keep referring to OSM data as if it is identical to the Israel Hiking Map or collected for this sole purpose. If firing zones are depicted or not, and how invasive the marking on the map is, are questions that should be answered by the specific rendering. If Zeev and Harel so choose it can be disregarded altogether or marked with a thin red line surrounding the area; a line that won’t interfere with navigation at all. Please note that the Samash map from the Nature Preservation Society also shows firing zones (in light pink).
Apologies, you’re right :/, I keep mixing up the two maps. Perhaps we need a sub-forum for the IHM ? Just a thought.
Anyway, I still believe it’s an unnecessary addition, especially in the way it is rendered at the moment.
Hi,
I believe both Firing zones/ranges and significant military bases should be mapped. Firing zone signes do not help you when you want to plan a trip. By the time you get there, it’s no longer planning time - it’s detour time…
Similarly, when you plan a trip in the Negev only to find that a track crosses a base and you need to do a 10-15 km backtrack to get to a road before the night comes. I’m not making this up, it happened to me.
In my opinion, getting stuck in the desert at dark, close to the fence of an army base, is much more dangerous than the risk of someone choosing to use the OSM map to find an IDF base.
Come to think of it, that base looks much better on the Bing map that was used to draw its perimeter in OSM.
When the Israeli Government publishes information, in Aviation directives and maps, the Government map portal, and other means, it no longer can be labeled “confidential” or “risk to Israel’s security”, even under Israeli law. The horses are already out of the barn. In many cases, it’s the Israeli government who let them free…
Zeev
I agree that there’s no reason to be “holier than the pope”. Mapping well-known military bases that are already available, e.g. in GTFS data of the ministry of transport, is completely risk-free yet can be vital for navigation and security. Of course we can have some restrictions, such as that the base name must be identical to that on road signs or in GTFS data and not include any extra information.
Since all reported deletion actions have been done by one user - Wikipod - I encouraged him via a PM to join the discussion:
User Wikipod alreeady joined discussion some time ago.
I’d like to quote OSM wiki:
We need to adduce consistent arguments for deleting military landuses. Otherwise I can’t find any motivation to keep on such activity in occupied territories.
FYI, given the discussion above, I have restored my contribution.
On 21-June-2013 user Wikipod had once again deleted my contribution of way 221795856
In my opinion, Wikipod’s actions are acts of vandalism:
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His deletions are making the database worse, not better.
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By his own statement, the deletion was not by mistake.
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A significant number of edits to ways can be definitively proved to be malicious and might bring the project into dispute or edit war
[list=*] -
In changeset 16235975 and again in changeset 16643642 contribution by zstadler was deleted.
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In changeset 16229355 and again in changeset 16235529 contribution by Saigon2001 was deleted.
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In changeset 15579440 contribution by parser was deleted.
Otherwise, Wikipod has been a constructive contributor to OSM. It is unfortunate that Wikipod also brings personal agenda and vandalism to the OSM community.
In a week from today I’m planning to contact the Data Working Group suggesting a for advice on the situation.
Perhaps in this period Wikipod will commit to stopping this behavior and we can put it behind us.
Guys, another interesting object: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/222405093
The author is very collaborative, so I asking you - remove or leave?
It’s public knowledge.
See the entry on the Mossad facilities in the Hebrew Wikipedia, and the references to publications in Haaretz dated back to 2007
Ok, so you suggest to not remove it?
Dear Ze’ev,
I welcome you to watch my edits list, and then reconsider labaling me “vandal”. My deletions are not even 1% of all of my work here.
As i said many times before, i really don’t like deletion of other’s work, but this is necessary. You didn’t respected our decision and your country’s law so don’t expect me respect your work. Please stop your hostile activity against me. I do not use “personal agenda”, I just keep Israel’s interests.
It’s not matter if someone in the world knows about or ever wrote obout it in a newspaper - if it a base of Israeli security forces - we DO NOT map it. Besides “HaAretz” not care about israel security - they publish lots of secret information. (remind you Anat Kam’s Case)
Please calm down everyone - we’re all here to do good. An edit war or flame war won’t get us anywhere.
Let’s see if we can reach an agreement on our policies.
To abide by the Israeli law, I suggest that we only map military areas that are marked on non-classified official Israeli maps.
These include training areas marked on the gov.il map.
It also does no harm, and should be legal, to trace roads or buildings visible in Bing maps, even if they are inside military areas.
As for naming these areas and identifying the buildings, I think we should avoid that.
Maybe we can use what can be seen in road signs such as:
מ.ק. 354
What are your thoughts?
What kind of law are we talking about?
I’m no lawyer.
Try this http://www.nevo.co.il/law_html/law01/073_002.htm#Seif532
מסירת ידיעה לאויב [ד/21]
111. מי שביודעין מסר ידיעה לאויב או בשבילו, דינו - מאסר עשר שנים; היתה הידיעה עלולה להיות לתועלת האויב, דינו - מאסר חמש-עשרה שנה; התכוון בכך לפגוע בבטחון המדינה, דינו - מאסר עולם; גרם ברשלנות שתימסר לאויב או בשבילו ידיעה העלולה להיות לתועלתו, דינו - מאסר שלוש שנים.
ריגול [ד/22]
Here they are speaking about “Secret information”. I’m very unsure that road signs with military bases names may be categorized as such information…
I agree. Let’s see what Wikipod thinks.
It’s not classified as “secret”, but this information is still promlematic for being published in the internet. The porpuse of the signs is to guide soldiers to the bases (And that’s why these signs written only in Hebrew). When we take all of this signs and we map them, it’s may be problematic. I mean, it’s the same like the bases itselfs - IDF are not trying to hide most of their bases by the real world but they are trying to prevent people from mapping it so people who trying to harm Israeli Bases would work harder to do so. (That the basic idea stands behind)
Perhaps we should directly ask the “Head Censor” what is permitted.
In the meantime, Wikipod, are you OK with the training grounds and roads within bases.
Otherwise our enemies wold look for roads that appear in Google Sat images and not in OSM and figure out where the bases are ;).
Chief Censor Lt. Col. Sima Waknin Gil 057 8189051
General Office exchange:03-7605800/1, Designated Fax to submit articles: 03-7605879