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#1 2008-05-08 08:48:00

Radomir
Member
Registered: 2008-05-08
Posts: 18

Routable Garmin maps: http://emexes.powweb.com/osm/

Hi Folks,

This is my first post on this forum, because I wasn't aware that it exists. Shame on me.

I have seen Garmin maps are a common topics here. I also tried recently to use OSM data on my Garmin device, but I think I have totally different approach that the one commonly presented here.

I understand the major drawback (or better call it lack of feature) of all existing maps generated from OSM data is that they are not routable?

If that's not the case, then please correct me, because I am currently working on automatic conversion tool which uses cGPSmapper as compiler and I already have first routable (more or less) map of Germany (as test area for time being, but possible to generate from any area). If someone already have done that, then I will use my time better than redesigning a wheel.

If not, then I will probably have some questions regarding legal/license issues for making these tool/maps available for free for comunity.

Ra

Edit:
Routable maps for Garmin created from OSM data are available on: http://emexes.powweb.com/osm/.
You can also download tool (by Liosha) which converts OSM data into Mp files which can be compiled on mapcenter2. See later posts for a link.

Edit by Lambertus: Change topic title to reflect the topic content better

Edited by Radomir: Added download url

Last edited by Radomir (2008-07-26 12:02:55)

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#2 2008-05-08 09:13:13

Lambertus
Administrator
From: Apeldoorn (NL)
Registered: 2007-03-17
Posts: 3,269
Website

Re: Routable Garmin maps: http://emexes.powweb.com/osm/

Radomir wrote:

I understand the major drawback (or better call it lack of feature) of all existing maps generated from OSM data is that they are not routable?

Yes, thats true. But work is being done to be able to provide routable maps in two major ways:
1) Make Mkgmap produce routable maps (the final goal).
2) Make Mkgmap produce intermediate files in the Polish format (.mp) that can be processed by cGPSMapper. This is considered an 'in-between solution'.

Radomir wrote:

If that's not the case, then please correct me, because I am currently working on automatic conversion tool which uses cGPSmapper as compiler and I already have first routable (more or less) map of Germany (as test area for time being, but possible to generate from any area). If someone already have done that, then I will use my time better than redesigning a wheel.

If not, then I will probably have some questions regarding legal/license issues for making these tool/maps available for free for comunity.

Well, you are not the only one working on the same problem, but I have no idea how far the author (and others) are with their attempt to let Mkgmap produce .mp files.

I would suggest that you contact the author of Mkgmap and maybe also Carl Newman who stated that he works on this as well.


Mapping tools: Garmin GPSmap 60CSx, Giant Terrago 2002

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#3 2008-05-12 14:40:47

akaDamian
Member
Registered: 2007-11-07
Posts: 6

Re: Routable Garmin maps: http://emexes.powweb.com/osm/

OSM users in Russia decided to take the same approach as Lambertus described - to make a tool for.osm -> .mp conversion and then process .mp with cGPSMapper. As far as I know, the main work is done by User:Liosha. There is a table with types attribution - http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php … сия/Garmin .

Also another user on Talk page suggested to use OSMGarminMap - http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/OSMGarminMap . Though id doesn't support API 0.5, it still works on exporting the data. The usage is:

1. Take osm2mpx.xml, osm2mpx.xsl, feature-list.xml, mpx2mp.xsl,
2. Download data and save it as data.osm
3. Run xsltproc osm2mpx.xml > map.mpx
4. Run xsltproc feature-list.xml > map.mp

Feature-list.xml contains old features only but it's still better than nothing.

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#4 2008-05-12 20:05:23

SiliconFiend
Member
From: North SF Bay, CA
Registered: 2007-09-20
Posts: 2

Re: Routable Garmin maps: http://emexes.powweb.com/osm/

Lambertus wrote:
Radomir wrote:

I understand the major drawback (or better call it lack of feature) of all existing maps generated from OSM data is that they are not routable?

Yes, thats true. But work is being done to be able to provide routable maps in two major ways:
1) Make Mkgmap produce routable maps (the final goal).
2) Make Mkgmap produce intermediate files in the Polish format (.mp) that can be processed by cGPSMapper. This is considered an 'in-between solution'.

Radomir wrote:

If that's not the case, then please correct me, because I am currently working on automatic conversion tool which uses cGPSmapper as compiler and I already have first routable (more or less) map of Germany (as test area for time being, but possible to generate from any area). If someone already have done that, then I will use my time better than redesigning a wheel.

If not, then I will probably have some questions regarding legal/license issues for making these tool/maps available for free for comunity.

Well, you are not the only one working on the same problem, but I have no idea how far the author (and others) are with their attempt to let Mkgmap produce .mp files.

I would suggest that you contact the author of Mkgmap and maybe also Carl Newman who stated that he works on this as well.

Yep, I'm working on a routable map converter, but very slowly. It's mostly in the conceptual phase now, no code yet. My plan was to go through the .mp format, because I understand that well, and later if someone (else) decodes the binary routing format, then the tool could be adapted to write that directly. My current plan is to use Osmosis as a base because it has a well-written pipeline and support for a lot of input sources. I've defined a proposed rules file format on my Wiki page here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php … nd/Ruleset. I've also defined some project requirements (mostly just a brain dump) here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php … quirements The thing that's holding me up mostly now is designing the architecture.

By the way, I took the old OsmGarminMap xsl sheets and updated them to work with the 0.5 api and also add routing support. However, XSL is the wrong tool for the job; it completely chokes on even 10 MB of data. But if you want to see my work and try it with a small area, my files are here: http://www.migratingcoconuts.com/pub/osmgarminmap/ You can test the output in GPSMapEdit--it has support for testing the routing graph.

Karl

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#5 2008-06-02 21:40:15

liosha
Member
From: Moscow
Registered: 2008-03-04
Posts: 8,446
Website

Re: Routable Garmin maps: http://emexes.powweb.com/osm/

Salut!

I'm also working on OSM -> MP converter  smile
Current version supports multipolygons and routing (pseudo, without turn restrictions).
You can download it here: http://garminmapsearch.com/osm/osm2mp_v04.zip
It's still in early phase, sorry for dirty code  smile

Usage: osm2mp.pl file.osm > result.mp
Some examples, updated daily: http://garminmapsearch.com/osm/mp/
Main discussion in Russian: http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=694

It was tested with up to 2GB .osm files from http://download.geofabrik.de/osm/europe

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#6 2008-06-05 20:45:37

mackerski
Member
Registered: 2008-06-05
Posts: 10

Re: Routable Garmin maps: http://emexes.powweb.com/osm/

liosha wrote:

I'm also working on OSM -> MP converter  smile

Hi,

Thanks for working on this. Since I can't participate in the Russian discussion, I hope you won't mind me posting here. I tried to generate a map of Ireland using this method. Your script very quickly produced what looks like a complete and valid .mp file. Feeding this to the cGPSmapper web service didn't produce a working map, but it looks like it may have come very close. The problem seems to be that my data contained routing nodes that were closer together than 5.4m, and cGPSmapper appears not to like this. I got quite a few of the same errror, but here's the tail end of it:

Distance is below 5.4, NODID1: 33771, NODID2: 13433 RgnID: 24005

Distance is below 5.4, NODID1: 14121, NODID2: 32874 RgnID: 24043

Distance is below 5.4, NODID1: 34106, NODID2: 35454 RgnID: 24112
Error R011: NODID points cannot be closer than 5.4 meter!
ERROR: Resulting IMG file '35301972.img' not found

I've investigated some of the problem cases. At least one of the examples I found really did have nodes that close (and it was possible to fix it). Other cases seem less easy to fix without local knowledge. Also, it would take a long time.

I've been looking into the code and it seems like it should be possible to avoid this case by lying a little to cGPSmapper. If we could detect when two nodes are too close to make any difference, we would report only one node. Does this seem a valid approach? I'm guessing that CPAN can provide a distance measurement module, though I'm sure that what I have in mind will slow things down.

Is it valid to do this only for the Nod<xx> entries or should I try to simplify the entire polyline?

Dermot

Last edited by mackerski (2008-06-05 20:53:48)

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#7 2008-06-05 21:39:03

liosha
Member
From: Moscow
Registered: 2008-03-04
Posts: 8,446
Website

Re: Routable Garmin maps: http://emexes.powweb.com/osm/

mackerski,
of course it is possible to detect such close points, but there are some problems:
* it'll take much more time, because we need n^2 distance measurements
* it is not clear what to do after we detect them. joining nodes is not a good idea

you can use cgpsmapper with -e parameter to skip errors (it will join close nodes)
also you can open .mp with GpsMapEdit and use "Verify map" tool

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#8 2008-06-05 21:48:40

mackerski
Member
Registered: 2008-06-05
Posts: 10

Re: Routable Garmin maps: http://emexes.powweb.com/osm/

liosha wrote:

* it'll take much more time, because we need n^2 distance measurements

Not for what I had in mind (though maybe my idea isn't sufficiently complete). I was only interested in avoiding nodes that are too close to each other along the same way. So the necessary check for this will be much more limited. If nodes along other ways cause a problem then at least we should find that there are much fewer of them.

liosha wrote:

* it is not clear what to do after we detect them. joining nodes is not a good idea

I agree that it could cause some unexpected results - but again, as long as we only do it within an existing way I'm hoping the effect will be minimal.

liosha wrote:

you can use cgpsmapper with -e parameter to skip errors (it will join close nodes)
also you can open .mp with GpsMapEdit and use "Verify map" tool

That's not so easy - if I understand correctly, the free version of cgpsmapper doesn't support the routing information, and that's what I'm interested in here. I already have non-routable maps on my Garmin devices. So my test used the online compiler, and I didn't see any way to set the -e parameter.

I'll experiment with merging nodes and see how far I get.

Thanks,
Dermot

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#9 2008-06-05 21:57:20

liosha
Member
From: Moscow
Registered: 2008-03-04
Posts: 8,446
Website

Re: Routable Garmin maps: http://emexes.powweb.com/osm/

mackerski wrote:

I was only interested in avoiding nodes that are too close to each other along the same way.

there is no need for such checks.
converter creates nodes only on road intersections, so not every OSM node become MP node  smile

mackerski wrote:

if I understand correctly, the free version of cgpsmapper doesn't support the routing information, and that's what I'm interested in here.

you can use personal version of cgpsmapper - it supports routing and have 1 month trial period

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#10 2008-06-05 22:09:43

mackerski
Member
Registered: 2008-06-05
Posts: 10

Re: Routable Garmin maps: http://emexes.powweb.com/osm/

liosha wrote:

there is no need for such checks.
converter creates nodes only on road intersections, so not every OSM node become MP node  smile

Sorry, I should have been clearer. The cases I'm having trouble with are where intersection nodes occur too close together along the same way. Sometimes this is just bad mapping, such as a crossroads with two nodes instead of one. But sometimes it can be a junction where both a road and a footpath beside it intersect the same road very close to each other.

liosha wrote:

you can use personal version of cgpsmapper - it supports routing and have 1 month trial period

That's handy. I'll try that.

Thanks,
Dermot

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#11 2008-06-06 05:12:51

liosha
Member
From: Moscow
Registered: 2008-03-04
Posts: 8,446
Website

Re: Routable Garmin maps: http://emexes.powweb.com/osm/

mackerski wrote:

The cases I'm having trouble with are where intersection nodes occur too close together along the same way. Sometimes this is just bad mapping, such as a crossroads with two nodes instead of one. But sometimes it can be a junction where both a road and a footpath beside it intersect the same road very close to each other.

Ok, now i understand  smile
i'll think about it, but imho it's not a task for converter
it would be better to make standalone script for MP preprocessing

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#12 2008-06-06 15:13:52

Radomir
Member
Registered: 2008-05-08
Posts: 18

Re: Routable Garmin maps: http://emexes.powweb.com/osm/

Joining nodes is exactly what i am doing. The assumption is "if the nodes are so close then what's the difference - the driver will find it's way anyway". I know that this not solves the problem pretty, but it is better the have the routable maps of a country with a few joined nodes than nothing at all.

From technical point of view: I use sweep algorithm. I am not sure if this is official name,  but you can probably find it in the net. It sorts the nodes taking x coordinate at first at then looks only for those which are close enough when looking at X axis. It works faster than naive comparison of n^2 nodes.

I don't compute the distance exactly, because I don't believe cgpsmapper does that anyway. Computation of REAL distance between two points having their Geo-coordinates is quite expensive. I simply check if the distance is not larger that n seconds. I suspect this is exactly what cgpsmapper and Garmin are doing.

Joining of nodes is a first problem. When you solve this, then you encouter another - self intersecting roads. Garmin prohibits the routable road to cross the same point more than once. And there is lot of such roads in OSM (roundabouts are the obvious example). I am splitting those into two parts but with checking if I am not creating two routing nodes laying to near etc.

I managed to produce some maps this way. I have just started to test them. You can download an UK & Ireland map from http://nickb.dev.openstreetmap.org/publ … reland.exe, but please be aware that this is first version. Not even beta wink

Ra

Edit:
The link points to InnoSetup installer of a compiled set of maps. The installer installs it into Garmin MapSource program. There are no *.mp files there.

Last edited by Radomir (2008-06-06 15:24:32)

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#13 2008-06-06 16:34:36

liosha
Member
From: Moscow
Registered: 2008-03-04
Posts: 8,446
Website

Re: Routable Garmin maps: http://emexes.powweb.com/osm/

Radomir wrote:

From technical point of view: I use sweep algorithm. I am not sure if this is official name,  but you can probably find it in the net. It sorts the nodes taking x coordinate at first at then looks only for those which are close enough when looking at X axis. It works faster than naive comparison of n^2 nodes.

I don't compute the distance exactly, because I don't believe cgpsmapper does that anyway. Computation of REAL distance between two points having their Geo-coordinates is quite expensive. I simply check if the distance is not larger that n seconds. I suspect this is exactly what cgpsmapper and Garmin are doing.

of course we do not need to make n^2 geo distance measurement  smile
there are many ways to optimize such process

but i advise just use cgpsmapper -e
and correct these errors in the OSM

Radomir wrote:

Joining of nodes is a first problem. When you solve this, then you encouter another - self intersecting roads. Garmin prohibits the routable road to cross the same point more than once. And there is lot of such roads in OSM (roundabouts are the obvious example). I am splitting those into two parts but with checking if I am not creating two routing nodes laying to near etc.

this problem is already solved in my script - it splits self-intersecting ways  smile
it also filters some node dupes

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#14 2008-06-07 09:49:28

Radomir
Member
Registered: 2008-05-08
Posts: 18

Re: Routable Garmin maps: http://emexes.powweb.com/osm/

Hi Liosha,

I had a quick look into your maps and they look very well. You have done a great job.

liosha wrote:

but i advise just use cgpsmapper -e
and correct these errors in the OSM

At first I thought you have lot of luck or very disciplined people working over map of Russia, because you have all the input data correct and I haven't seen corrections implemented in your code. But I skimmed it quickly through so it is possible that I missed something.

Now I am a bit confused. Are you correcting the data in OSM manually? Do you do this in OSM or MP files?

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#15 2008-06-07 18:58:40

liosha
Member
From: Moscow
Registered: 2008-03-04
Posts: 8,446
Website

Re: Routable Garmin maps: http://emexes.powweb.com/osm/

Radomir wrote:

... or very disciplined people working over map of Russia...

LOL  lol:lol:

Radomir wrote:

I haven't seen corrections implemented in your code. But I skimmed it quickly through so it is possible that I missed something.
Now I am a bit confused. Are you correcting the data in OSM manually? Do you do this in OSM or MP files?

I have some corrections implemented in code: duplicate nodes are filtered, self-intersecting roads are splitted.
I was found just 5 bad roads in Moscow area that causes fatal error in cgpsmapper, and i manually corrected them in OSM.
Now cgpsmapper can compile Moscow with -e switch (there are some errors like "too close nodes", but they are not fatal).

I also made script that daily downloads some areas via osmxapi, converts them into MP and then tries to compile with cgpsmapper_free (w/o routing) and with cgpsmapper_personal.
Results are here: http://garminmapsearch.com/osm/mp/
As you can see, Saint-Petersburg area (piter_*) still can not be compiled with routing.

Last edited by liosha (2008-06-07 18:59:26)

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#16 2008-06-08 01:29:18

mackerski
Member
Registered: 2008-06-05
Posts: 10

Re: Routable Garmin maps: http://emexes.powweb.com/osm/

liosha wrote:

but i advise just use cgpsmapper -e
and correct these errors in the OSM

I have had some useful results with cgpsmapper -e. Trying to create a map of all Ireland still fails for some other reason, but that can probably be fixed.

I am a big fan of correcting bad data in the OSM data. However, this is not always possible (well, let's say desirable). Take some cases:

1. You have a simple crossroad. But instead of meeting on a single node, the junction includes two nodes about a metre apart. This is a mapper error and should be fixed and cgpsmapper will then be happy

2. You have a small (but not mini) roundabout. cgpsmapper complains that the nodes on adjacent arms of the roundabout are too close together (BTW, I think you're correct that the distance measurement it uses is inexact, because it has complained about nodes that IMHO _are_ more than 5.4m apart).

The only way in the base data to make cgpsmapper stop complaining is to collapse the whole roundabout onto a single node (or fewer nodes in any case). This is bad for the navigation instructions that will result from this - because the junction will no longer be recognised as a roundabout. It's also a very bad case of mapping-for-the-renderer, to remove map detail just because a single application can't deal with it.

Preprocessing does, as you say, provide a solution to this.

3. Junction of two dual-carriageways at traffic signals. In the standard case you will have four junction nodes. What if they are too close to each other? Once again, I don't want to simplify that on the OSM side.

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#17 2008-06-08 18:29:12

usm78-gis
Member
Registered: 2008-04-21
Posts: 2,464

Re: Routable Garmin maps: http://emexes.powweb.com/osm/

mackerski wrote:

1. You have a simple crossroad. But instead of meeting on a single node, the junction includes two nodes about a metre apart. This is a mapper error and should be fixed and cgpsmapper will then be happy

You can use the 'merge nodes' function in JOSM, after doing a rectangular selection around these nodes.

2. You have a small (but not mini) roundabout. cgpsmapper complains that the nodes on adjacent arms of the roundabout are too close together

Split the roundabout into pieces at the crossings. Having 'roundabout' as topological object is a bad idea anyway.

Preprocessing does, as you say, provide a solution to this.

I'm using some quick and dirty awk scripts to extract, download and edit certain OSM topological errors, but maybe we can extend
osm2mp to work as an osm2osm preprocessor. Then it will be possible to re-upload preprocessed data directly to the server.
It opens a big can or worms with concurrency, if two people will try to reprocess the same or overlapping areas simultaneously.
Fortunately, there are not that much people editing OSM late at night smile

3. Junction of two dual-carriageways at traffic signals. In the standard case you will have four junction nodes. What if they are too close to each other? Once again, I don't want to simplify that on the OSM side.

You can't avoid 'mapping-for-garmin' here, so think out some soultion that will be commonly acceptable.

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#18 2008-06-08 18:50:16

usm78-gis
Member
Registered: 2008-04-21
Posts: 2,464

Re: Routable Garmin maps: http://emexes.powweb.com/osm/

liosha wrote:

As you can see, Saint-Petersburg area (piter_*) still can not be compiled with routing.

Error R009: Limit of 60 segments for a single road exceed.

osm2mp should deal with it, since it's a garmin-specific problem.

Distance is below 5.4, NODID1: 9513, NODID2: 8571 RgnID: 14

It does not show up in gpsmapedit, but i will check again.

Internal error during split of RGN80 objects - if this is supported version of program - contact with gps_mapper

I doubt we can do something about cgpsmapper internal bugs without having the source code.
One more reason to finish the NOD research, add it to mkgmap and put this cgpsmapper guy out of the business wink

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#19 2008-06-08 20:29:49

liosha
Member
From: Moscow
Registered: 2008-03-04
Posts: 8,446
Website

Re: Routable Garmin maps: http://emexes.powweb.com/osm/

Internal error during split of RGN80 objects - if this is supported version of program - contact with gps_mapper

this fatal error is caused while trying to recover this error:

Node in road with NODID point or house numbers was reduced - 2 nodes were aligned to the same coordinates
RoadID: 5683
Error R007: Node reduction.

the way has nodes with different ID but with same coords. just redraw that way

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#20 2008-06-08 21:50:08

usm78-gis
Member
Registered: 2008-04-21
Posts: 2,464

Re: Routable Garmin maps: http://emexes.powweb.com/osm/

liosha wrote:

the way has nodes with different ID but with same coords. just redraw that way

I'm doing the full n(n-1)/2 distance qsort() on the original routable nodes table, so it just can't happen.

edit:
sorry, the bridleways and similar weird ways were removed  from the table. maybe it explains
what's going on here.

Last edited by usm78-gis (2008-06-08 21:52:24)

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#21 2008-06-09 10:06:54

nyem
Member
Registered: 2007-08-02
Posts: 20

Re: Routable Garmin maps: http://emexes.powweb.com/osm/

liosha wrote:

I have some corrections implemented in code: duplicate nodes are filtered, self-intersecting roads are splitted.

Garmin has a specific type for roundabout (0xc, polyline). Can we have all ways tagged as junction=roundabout use this type. Modifying poly.cfg doesn't seem to work. You might also want to set all roundabouts as oneway=yes if it was not tagged as such.

Thanks for such a great tool

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#22 2008-06-09 10:13:41

Radomir
Member
Registered: 2008-05-08
Posts: 18

Re: Routable Garmin maps: http://emexes.powweb.com/osm/

Hi Guys,

I got a program written in python that corrects all the situations that do not fulfil Garmin requirements. But it makes the corrections while reading data. I have never planed to update OSM database itself. This is because I think, that these requirements are Garmin specific and OSM is not. What if there is someone preparing routable maps for X devices and they require roundabouts from one piece and nodes laying no closer that 10 meters? Should he correct the data in OSM? I'm sure not. Correcting data in fly should be no problem.

I quickly (=without lot of work) generated a map of Petersburg with my tool. You can download it here: [link removed]. I made a mistake declaring an area and the city is a bit off centre, but this shouldn't be an issue. Everything that I have done manually was to declare an area of the map, it's ID, name and some paths to planet and osm files. The whole process is automatic. I don't correct any data in OSM. It took about 1,5 hour of computing time, but almost all the time was needed for Osmosis to extract the data from planet file. And obviously I am not yet ready to support cyrillic languages wink

I checked the map quick on my eTrex and it seems to be routable. Here is the screenshot: petersburg-example.jpg

Admin edit: Link not working anymore

Last edited by Lambertus (2009-02-08 12:41:40)

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#23 2008-06-09 10:40:18

liosha
Member
From: Moscow
Registered: 2008-03-04
Posts: 8,446
Website

Re: Routable Garmin maps: http://emexes.powweb.com/osm/

nyem wrote:

Garmin has a specific type for roundabout (0xc, polyline). Can we have all ways tagged as junction=roundabout use this type. Modifying poly.cfg doesn't seem to work.

this osm2mp version uses latest tag to determine object type
so if it sees "junction=roundabout" _after_ "highway=" it sets Type=0x0c, or highway type if _before_
some priority mechanism must be imbplemented to have it always use 0x0c
i'll think about it smile

nyem wrote:

You might also want to set all roundabouts as oneway=yes if it was not tagged as such

add line

      $polydir     = 1                  if ("$1=$2" eq "junction=roundabout");

before

      $polydir     = $yesno{$2}         if ($1 eq "oneway");

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#24 2008-06-09 11:39:31

usm78-gis
Member
Registered: 2008-04-21
Posts: 2,464

Re: Routable Garmin maps: http://emexes.powweb.com/osm/

Radomir wrote:

But it makes the corrections while reading data. I have never planed to update OSM database itself.

I think that certain changes should be put back into the database (all that are non-garmin specific).

It took about 1,5 hour of computing time, but almost all the time was needed for Osmosis to extract the data from planet file.

It is much faster (and easier) to use OSMXAPI DB for this purpose.

And obviously I am not yet ready to support cyrillic languages wink

I think it's garmin to blame here for not using the utf8 fonts.

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#25 2008-06-09 12:54:33

emj
Member
From: .se (59.3N17.99E) 0735969076
Registered: 2006-06-18
Posts: 949

Re: Routable Garmin maps: http://emexes.powweb.com/osm/

usm78-gis wrote:

And obviously I am not yet ready to support cyrillic languages wink

I think it's garmin to blame here for not using the utf8 fonts.

That should be easy to solve, if koi8r is the russian charset.

iconv -f utf8 -t koi8r planet-extract.osm >russian.osm

Might not parse in all OSM tools (osmosis) after that but it should convert from utf8 to koi8r.

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