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#1 2007-12-02 16:29:02

Ben
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From: United Arab Emirates
Registered: 2006-05-23
Posts: 213

Could this data be used:

There are quite a few areas around me that have permissive footpaths or permissive open areas.  They nearly always just have a map printed at the entrance point, although sometimes there are additional signs.  here is an example.

The map is copyright, but it is being used as a sign.  Signs are usually considered the primary source of data for mapping row's.

The sign is really the customised element of the map where it is coloured to show where the route/area is.

If the field layout data is generated from GPS data, then would it be OK to map the permissive footpath based on the sign, using it as a sign not a map?

For this example I could probably send a map to English heritage and ask them to mark where the route is, but usually this is not the case.

Thanks,


Ben

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#2 2007-12-03 14:01:40

Lambertus
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From: Apeldoorn (NL)
Registered: 2007-03-17
Posts: 3,269
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Re: Could this data be used:

Seems to me that maps which display copyright have copyright. The fact that you can look at them does not imply that you may copy it or use it for OSM...

If you GPS tracks of that area and you don't tell anyone that you used the copyrighted map/sign for inspiration, then noone will be able to accuse you of copying copyrighted material, because you mapped the area yourself... wink

Shall I remove this topic before it ends up in Google? cool

Anyway, there's little attribution from the sign when you explored the area yourself and have done most mapping based on your own GPS traces. The sing only reminds you where the footpaths were, right?


Mapping tools: Garmin GPSmap 60CSx, Giant Terrago 2002

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#3 2007-12-03 14:19:55

Ben
Member
From: United Arab Emirates
Registered: 2006-05-23
Posts: 213

Re: Could this data be used:

Well, I am aware that a map that displays copyright has copyright!.  I'm not suggesting that the ability to see something makes it free of copyright, that is absurd.  My point is that it is being used as a sign.  Usually footpath signs are used, but they are also placed relative to maps, yet the sign is considered OK to use.   The sign has 2 elements, it has the OS data, then it has a green line showing where you can go.  I am asking if this is comparable to a normal footpath sign, and can this green line/dash be used not directly (traced), but rather for identifying what is what from the gpx data.

If I were to GPS track that area...which I have, and not tell anyone and still upload the permissive path, then there would be no other source for the data that I know of, so its origins would be questionable.

I'm not sure why you would want to remove the topic, is perfectly OK to enquire about what is a legal source of data, and avoiding talking about it makes OSM more susceptible to getting illegal data as people are less aware what is OK and not OK.   This particular example occurs frequently, and if this is a definate no, then a moderate lump of posible data has been excluded from the map.

<edit (missed the last point)>:  The sign doesn't really 'remind' as such, because the a permissive path that isn't visible, can't be visually identified, and personally I didn't know of it before reading the sign.  It's permissive access is only clear from the sign.  The open 'area' in particular, as no paths would be worn.  If the sign was removed the path and area wouldn't be known of, just like if most public footpath signs were removed.

Last edited by Ben (2007-12-03 14:24:49)


Ben

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#4 2007-12-03 14:41:31

Lambertus
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From: Apeldoorn (NL)
Registered: 2007-03-17
Posts: 3,269
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Re: Could this data be used:

I was kinda trying to be funny here and there, we misunderstood each other a bit I guess.

As long as you don't copy the sign 1-on-1, retrace it I think you're in the clear. I'm no lawyer and this question might be a difficult one (without the copyrighted map you wouldn't know if the properties you're about to add to OSM were even there...as you say). Personally I think this should/would be allowed by court.


Mapping tools: Garmin GPSmap 60CSx, Giant Terrago 2002

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#5 2007-12-03 15:16:43

Ben
Member
From: United Arab Emirates
Registered: 2006-05-23
Posts: 213

Re: Could this data be used:

Sorry for the misunderstanding, I thought it seemed slightly sarcastic, but I wasn't sure if that was just my perspective in disagreeing with the 'literally' taken points!
I'll leave this open for debate, and if nothing I'll add the data in a few days I think.  I'll note=* it for easy finding.


Ben

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#6 2008-03-28 18:26:54

Ben
Member
From: United Arab Emirates
Registered: 2006-05-23
Posts: 213

Re: Could this data be used:

Ok, another question regarding using data, this time I think hopefully the data is fine, but again I just wanna be sure.

There are a couple of villages I'm currently sorting which don't have street signs.  I found this path change (in the image attached), which references a map, but doesn't show the map.   I can map the path using the signs on the ground, and then work out points d-h using the text, but ignoring the grid references.   I then know the 2 road names out the village.   Can I use these do you think?

Also, presuming I was told that there are 2 road names for the roads out the village I would know which ones they are because the name is just named after where it goes to.  Therefore all I really need to extract from this sign are the 2 names.  All the location bits can be ignored.

Can this sign be treated the same as a road sign showing a street name therefore, as I am placing it relative to my/osm data..

...or is all the information on this sign copyright?

(It also states the path number (ES6)..is this usable?

There are plenty of other examples of this, which is partly why I ask, so if it's OK then that's handy.

edit> H-I is wrong actually, but it doesn't really matter

roadnames-pathchange.png

Last edited by Ben (2008-03-28 18:31:06)


Ben

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#7 2008-03-28 21:03:42

emj
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From: .se (59.3N17.99E) 0735969076
Registered: 2006-06-18
Posts: 949

Re: Could this data be used:

In sweden it wouldn't be copyrightable, if you have 100 of these papers and copy from that would be a violation, this isn't.

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#8 2008-03-29 10:20:02

Richard
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From: Charlbury, UK
Registered: 2007-04-24
Posts: 383
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Re: Could this data be used:

Ok, this is quite a tricky one. The extra data on the map can sometimes be considered a "severable improvement". That is, you can sever - disentangle - the information it conveys from the actual map data itself. There's actually an express clause about this in the Ordnance Survey's new Openspace map API.

My gut feeling is that if the data wasn't on the original OS map, and you're still surveying the footpath itself - like you say, "used as a sign" - then you're ok. But you might want to e-mail OS's copyright department and your local council to check.

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#9 2008-03-29 19:51:13

Ben
Member
From: United Arab Emirates
Registered: 2006-05-23
Posts: 213

Re: Could this data be used:

Thanks for that advice.  E-mailing OS's copyright department seems a hell of an effort for a few signs, and local councils will take months to answer (assuming there on the ball).  It may be quicker to hunt down a postman and get the street names off him.


Ben

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#10 2008-03-30 11:55:03

Lambertus
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From: Apeldoorn (NL)
Registered: 2007-03-17
Posts: 3,269
Website

Re: Could this data be used:

If you'd follow the route as said on the poster, would you come across signs which name the road? If so then the info on the poster isn't unique or subject to "severable improvement" and can be used in OSM. You could also ask a local for the name of the road if it isn't signposted somewhere and add it as "local knowledge".


Mapping tools: Garmin GPSmap 60CSx, Giant Terrago 2002

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#11 2008-03-31 00:03:09

Ben
Member
From: United Arab Emirates
Registered: 2006-05-23
Posts: 213

Re: Could this data be used:

Nope, there are no road signs. (note: I'd also like to extract the path ref/name from posters like this)

If you follow the route as described on the map you would see path signs all the way along, and that is exactly how I have mapped it.  At either end (i.e where it leaves the road), there is a sign that states there is a footpath that way.   That is all.  Basically the standard UK right of way stuff for anyone who's familiar with that.

As you say though, local knowledge is the other option, (or asking a postman as I said above), but I'm asking this not specifically in relation to this example, but in general, as there have been other occasions where data is on these maps that could be helpful, and it can't be found elsewhere (that I know of)


Ben

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