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#26 2021-10-26 16:30:49

Jan Olieslagers
Member
From: B-3150
Registered: 2019-09-15
Posts: 247

Re: Hi, we are TomTom - let's exchange ideas

Het lijkt me belangrijk om een onderscheid te maken tussen enerzijds "mappen in NL (en omgeving)" en anderszijds "mogelijke belangenconflicten tussen OSM en commerciële bedrijven/organisaties". Het ene hoort hier thuis, en hoort voor mijn part in het Nederlands; de andere discussie kan in het Engels maar moet wel op een universelere plaats gebeuren.

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#27 2021-10-26 19:28:21

goedegazelle
Member
From: Nederland
Registered: 2017-07-19
Posts: 689

Re: Hi, we are TomTom - let's exchange ideas

Jan Olieslagers wrote:

mogelijke belangenconflicten tussen OSM en commerciële bedrijven/organisaties

Voor een volledige discussie zou er geen onderscheid tussen commercieel en niet-commercieel moeten worden gemaakt.

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#28 2021-10-27 09:43:43

Hendrikklaas
Member
Registered: 2012-08-15
Posts: 1,381

Re: Hi, we are TomTom - let's exchange ideas

Geim

For routing he probably means MV-routing, that's where they make their money. Not outdoor navigation.
I'm all for data quality, but routing is just a (tiny) part of that.

+
Maar waarom moet dat kleine deel dan prominent op de basis (database) kaart zichtbaar zijn ?

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#29 2021-10-29 17:45:19

MarjanVan
Member
Registered: 2021-09-09
Posts: 18

Re: Hi, we are TomTom - let's exchange ideas

Hi everyone,

I'm also providing a Dutch version of this message below, since I see that some of you prefer to communicate in Dutch.

Thanks for sharing some more thoughts.

We understand your worries about corporate editing. We recognize your commitment to your standards and guidelines and respect them. As fellow mapmakers we want to help improve the map, which we've already successfully done with other communities (for instance the Polish community, as RicoElectrico mentions).

We'd love to talk about either of the projects we proposed:
- the non-closed polygon challenge,
- the charging station tag fixes, for which we have now also created a challenge in the Netherlands (see this link to MapRoulette).

We could also support you in leveraging MapMetrics to help you with some of your own projects. It is the first release to OSM from Steve Coast's Innovation team within TomTom, and we are excited about its potential.

We're also interested to hear if you have any other ideas. We're excited to combine our strengths and map together.

-----

Hallo iedereen

Bedankt om deze bijkomende opmerkingen met ons te delen.

We begrijpen jullie bezorgdheden omtrent edits door bedrijven. We erkennen dat jullie bepaalde standaarden en richtlijnen volgen en willen die ook respecteren. Net als jullie zijn we kaartenmakers, en in die hoedanigheid willen we samen met jullie de kaart nog beter maken. We hadden al succesvolle samenwerkingen met andere communities, bijvoorbeeld de Poolse, zoals RicoElectrico vermeldde.

We zouden het graag met jullie hebben over de projecten die we voorstelden:
- de challenge voor niet-gesloten polygons,
- het fixen van de charging station tags, waarvoor we nu ook een challenge aangemaakt hebben in Nederland (zie deze MapRoulette-link).

We kunnen jullie ook helpen gebruikmaken van MapMetrics ter ondersteuning van jullie eigen projecten. Het is de eerste release naar OSM van Steve Coasts Innovation-team binnen TomTom, en we zijn enthousiast over het potentieel van deze tool.

Als jullie andere ideeën hebben, horen we dat graag. We zouden het fijn vinden om onze krachten te bundelen en samen aan de kaart te werken.

Marjan

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#30 2021-10-29 19:19:30

Allroads
Member
Registered: 2011-03-05
Posts: 3,157

Re: Hi, we are TomTom - let's exchange ideas

Sadly, there is no response on the mail.

Mapmetrics Nederland

Knowing places that are correct drawn in with the newest data, mostly of the Government, like BGT omtrekgericht, every street is checked, access tagged according to the traffic_sign, and still finding yellow, orange and red tiles on the map.
Okay, some development, new house blocks, one temporally closed street.

There are much much false positive.
Looking at a colored tile, how to find, what's wrong.
Looking for "the needle in the haystack", because someone tells, there could be a needle.
A colored tile is often a whole neighbourhood. Lot of cut roads to check.
Straight roads, like the road on the Markerwaarddijk between Enkhuizen and Lelystad,
mostly red, orange, yellow tiles,  must everyone look there, the next one looks again, what is wrong?

Because of this.
The use of this tool is time consuming. If you want to find a spot to edit.
And does not give the effect it should give.

Download, not usable data, data set to big for local OSM use. 1.9 GB
Inside .csv is no extra hints, where to look.
All these data sets, we only need the latest.

In the base, it is a good idea, but it is to vague, to find in seconds, what the problem is.

Last edited by Allroads (2021-10-30 12:55:35)

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#31 2021-10-29 20:08:59

Jillis E
Member
Registered: 2019-06-08
Posts: 350

Re: Hi, we are TomTom - let's exchange ideas

A *lot* of Mapmetrics false positives can be found along railroads, and also along shipping/ferry routes.
These really need to be addressed first before this starts to become useful.

As for the Maproulette challenges: I'm not interested myself, but that's because I tend(ed) to map things I encounter myself, and I mostly do mapping for the Humanitarian OpenStreetMap Team. The Tasking Manager they've set up (tasks.hotosm.org) could be a good approach to handling the Mapmetrics squares.

MarjanVan, could I in return for my feedback get a response to my previous post with remarks and a question: https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtop … 85#p844385 ? Much appreciated, thanks.

Last edited by Jillis E (2021-10-30 13:47:16)

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#32 2021-10-29 20:20:01

Tilia_J
Member
Registered: 2019-01-17
Posts: 59

Re: Hi, we are TomTom - let's exchange ideas

Allroads wrote:

There are much much false positive.

[...]

In the base, it is a good idea, but it is to vague, to find in seconds, what the problem is.

I drew the same conclusion after inspection of mapmetrics

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#33 2021-10-29 21:17:00

E de Wit
Member
Registered: 2018-11-02
Posts: 103

Re: Hi, we are TomTom - let's exchange ideas

MarjanVan wrote:

We'd love to talk about either of the projects we proposed:
- the non-closed polygon challenge,
- the charging station tag fixes, for which we have now also created a challenge in the Netherlands (see this link to MapRoulette).

I don't see a problem with the first challenge and encourage challenges that don't require local knowledge and are easy to fix.
For the second challenge the text doesn't match the actual challenge. There are a lot of not-Tesla superchargers.
And the description reads "(there is no space between value and units)." whilst the challenge is set correctly to suggest a space, which is indeed the standard within OsM.


MarjanVan wrote:

We could also support you in leveraging MapMetrics to help you with some of your own projects. It is the first release to OSM from Steve Coast's Innovation team within TomTom, and we are excited about its potential.

There are tiles from MapMetrics in Fryslân that colour red but have all the roads correctly mapped since the AND import and there aren't even any potential tracks visible.
So sorry but to be quite blunt for The Netherlands MapMetrics in its current state is completely useless and is filled with false positives.

Last edited by E de Wit (2021-10-29 21:29:36)

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#34 2021-10-29 21:55:51

Kogacarlo
Member
From: Venloslenk
Registered: 2010-08-11
Posts: 958

Re: Hi, we are TomTom - let's exchange ideas

Marjan, als je het zo belangrijk vindt om de charging station-tags te fixen, waarom doe je dat dan niet?

Last edited by Kogacarlo (2021-10-29 21:56:08)

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#35 2021-10-31 21:05:51

Maarten Deen
Member
Registered: 2010-05-20
Posts: 473

Re: Hi, we are TomTom - let's exchange ideas

Ik denk dat dat is omdat niemand echt ingaat op haar vraag maar er opeens een hele metadiscussie over TomTom ontstaat.

IMHO is het een vrij simpele fix die als een automatische edit gedaan kan worden. Doen. Maar verwacht wel dat je dit moet herhalen want dit is gewoon iets wat niet altijd goed getagd wordt.

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#36 2021-11-01 10:36:33

Lachgast
Member
From: Hoorn (NH)
Registered: 2019-07-11
Posts: 428

Re: Hi, we are TomTom - let's exchange ideas

As long as large(r) projects are shared within the community I don't think it matters whether a party is commercial or not.
Great that TomTom decides to use Openstreetmap data and that they run an extra check on the quality of the data.

The two aforementioned projects don't seem to hurt; I guess many people run similar fixes on for instance opening hours or phone numbers. So rewriting the kW into the correct form would be fine.
And I'm not particularly a Maproulette connoisseur but  I know it gets a lot op people going.

I'd say: thanks for notifying and please let us know when there are new projects ahead!

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#37 2021-11-01 17:40:30

Commodoortje
Member
Registered: 2013-10-31
Posts: 2,642

Re: Hi, we are TomTom - let's exchange ideas

Lachgast wrote:

As long as large(r) projects are shared within the community I don't think it matters whether a party is commercial or not.
Great that TomTom decides to use Openstreetmap data and that they run an extra check on the quality of the data.

The two aforementioned projects don't seem to hurt; I guess many people run similar fixes on for instance opening hours or phone numbers. So rewriting the kW into the correct form would be fine.
And I'm not particularly a Maproulette connoisseur but  I know it gets a lot op people going.

I'd say: thanks for notifying and please let us know when there are new projects ahead!


Inderdaad, goed samengevat.
Ik sta hierachter.

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#38 2021-11-01 18:02:58

Kogacarlo
Member
From: Venloslenk
Registered: 2010-08-11
Posts: 958

Re: Hi, we are TomTom - let's exchange ideas

Maarten Deen wrote:

Ik denk dat dat is omdat niemand echt ingaat op haar vraag...

Mijn reactie is mijn antwoord op haar vraag:

What do you think about these ideas for OSM improvements in the Netherlands?

Ik beschouw Marjan als een van onze mappers. Als ze bepaalde dingen belangrijk vindt dan corrigeert ze die maar.
Uiteraard moet 22kw 22 kW zijn.

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#39 2021-11-04 21:24:52

Commodoortje
Member
Registered: 2013-10-31
Posts: 2,642

Re: Hi, we are TomTom - let's exchange ideas

Voor geïnteresseerden:
De oprichter van OpenStreetMap heeft Oct 25, 2021 een blogpost op de TomTom website geschreven.

https://www.tomtom.com/blog/maps/the-ba … lity-maps/

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#40 2021-11-05 08:57:38

Geim
Member
From: MM
Registered: 2017-03-29
Posts: 707

Re: Hi, we are TomTom - let's exchange ideas

Commodoortje wrote:

Voor geïnteresseerden:
De oprichter van OpenStreetMap heeft Oct 25, 2021 een blogpost op de TomTom website geschreven.

https://www.tomtom.com/blog/maps/the-ba … lity-maps/

Volgens mij heeft hij die blogpost geschreven uit hoofde van zijn huidige functie bij TomTom.

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#41 2021-11-05 16:56:23

Commodoortje
Member
Registered: 2013-10-31
Posts: 2,642

Re: Hi, we are TomTom - let's exchange ideas

Geim wrote:
Commodoortje wrote:

Voor geïnteresseerden:
De oprichter van OpenStreetMap heeft Oct 25, 2021 een blogpost op de TomTom website geschreven.

https://www.tomtom.com/blog/maps/the-ba … lity-maps/

Volgens mij heeft hij die blogpost geschreven uit hoofde van zijn huidige functie bij TomTom.

Het blijft inderdaad onze oprichter.

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#42 2021-11-05 18:38:19

MarjanVan
Member
Registered: 2021-09-09
Posts: 18

Re: Hi, we are TomTom - let's exchange ideas

Hallo iedereen

Thank you for being so responsive. We really appreciate it.

Let me reply to these questions and comments:

Allroads wrote:

Sadly, there is no response on the mail.

Did you contact innovationteam@groups.tomtom.com? If yes, we'll ask the team to get in touch with you.

Allroads wrote:

There are much much false positive.
Looking at a colored tile, how to find, what's wrong.
Looking for "the needle in the haystack", because someone tells, there could be a needle.
A colored tile is often a whole neighbourhood. Lot of cut roads to check.
Straight roads, like the road on the Markerwaarddijk between Enkhuizen and Lelystad,
mostly red, orange, yellow tiles,  must everyone look there, the next one looks again, what is wrong?

Because of this.
The use of this tool is time consuming. If you want to find a spot to edit.
And does not give the effect it should give.

Download, not usable data, data set to big for local OSM use. 1.9 GB
Inside .csv is no extra hints, where to look.
All these data sets, we only need the latest.

In the base, it is a good idea, but it is to vague, to find in seconds, what the problem is.

Jillis E wrote:

A *lot* of Mapmetrics false positives can be found along railroads, and also along shipping/ferry routes.
These really need to be addressed first before this starts to become useful.

The tool is brand new and still requires fine-tuning. That is why we really appreciate this valuable feedback. We will take it along as we further improve MapMetrics. Note that some of your concerns will already be addressed in a new release that's coming out soon.

Regarding the false positives: Steve Coast's team is working on removing these. He wrote about this in his most recent blog post (also mentioned in this thread by FriendlyGhost and Commodoortje).

Furthermore, we have new documentation about MapMetrics (in PDF format) that will answer some of your questions. Would you like to receive this?

Jillis E wrote:

As for the Maproulette challenges: I'm not interested myself, but that's because I tend(ed) to map things I encounter myself, and I mostly do mapping for the Humanitarian OpenStreetMap Team. The Tasking Manager they've set up (tasks.hotosm.org) could be a good approach to handling the Mapmetrics squares.

Thank you for the Tasking Manager suggestion, it indeed seems useful.

Jillis E wrote:

MarjanVan, could I in return for my feedback get a response to my previous post with remarks and a question: https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtop … 85#p844385 ? Much appreciated, thanks.

Jillis E wrote:

MarjanVan, I think you should add your company to this list as well: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Com … d_Services

We are not in that list because we do not offer commercial OSM software or services. We are however in the list of Organised Editing Teams.

Jillis E wrote:

And a question also from me to get things clear: are the editors listed on your wiki page paid to do their work in OpenStreetMap?

Our editors are indeed paid.

Jillis E wrote:

If the 'Polygon is not closed' Maproulette actually was created by TomTom, it should mention that in its description.

Our company is mentioned in the project description.

E de Wit wrote:

For the second challenge the text doesn't match the actual challenge. There are a lot of not-Tesla superchargers.
And the description reads "(there is no space between value and units)." whilst the challenge is set correctly to suggest a space, which is indeed the standard within OsM.

Thanks for catching this. We've revised the challenge description so it's more accurate.

Kogacarlo wrote:

Marjan, als je het zo belangrijk vindt om de charging station-tags te fixen, waarom doe je dat dan niet?

We are happy to work on this if it's helpful for the community. Our intent is to support the community's interests (this particular challenge was prepared based on an idea described in this thread).

--

We willen hier graag aan werken als dat nuttig is voor jullie. Ons doel is om de noden van de community te ondersteunen (deze specifieke challenge werd aangemaakt op basis van een idee beschreven in deze discussie).

Lachgast wrote:

As long as large(r) projects are shared within the community I don't think it matters whether a party is commercial or not.
Great that TomTom decides to use Openstreetmap data and that they run an extra check on the quality of the data.

The two aforementioned projects don't seem to hurt; I guess many people run similar fixes on for instance opening hours or phone numbers. So rewriting the kW into the correct form would be fine.
And I'm not particularly a Maproulette connoisseur but  I know it gets a lot op people going.

I'd say: thanks for notifying and please let us know when there are new projects ahead!

We're glad to read this. It is indeed our aim to always share projects with the community upfront. We are currently working on detecting and reviewing issues in the map and will let you know if this results in any project plans. I can say already that we want to start working on road edits in the near future. We will keep you posted on this.

Once again, thank you all for the fruitful discussion.

Kind regards,
Marjan

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#43 2021-11-05 21:06:42

Jillis E
Member
Registered: 2019-06-08
Posts: 350

Re: Hi, we are TomTom - let's exchange ideas

MarjanVan wrote:
Jillis E wrote:

MarjanVan, I think you should add your company to this list as well: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Com … d_Services

We are not in that list because we do not offer commercial OSM software or services. We are however in the list of Organised Editing Teams.

I don't agree. As far as I understand (but your information about what your goals are is still very limited!) TomTom is going to use OSM data to offer commercial services, hence my suggestion.

Last edited by Jillis E (2021-11-06 09:20:04)

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#44 2021-11-06 09:45:36

Allroads
Member
Registered: 2011-03-05
Posts: 3,157

Re: Hi, we are TomTom - let's exchange ideas

MarjanVan wrote:

..............Did you contact innovationteam@groups.tomtom.com? .........

No, the mail adres on your page Organised Editing page.

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#45 2021-11-08 08:12:19

MarjanVan
Member
Registered: 2021-09-09
Posts: 18

Re: Hi, we are TomTom - let's exchange ideas

Allroads wrote:
MarjanVan wrote:

..............Did you contact innovationteam@groups.tomtom.com? .........

No, the mail adres on your page Organised Editing page.

Apparently we missed that message, I'm sorry about that. I will shoot you an email.

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#46 2021-11-08 08:37:49

MarjanVan
Member
Registered: 2021-09-09
Posts: 18

Re: Hi, we are TomTom - let's exchange ideas

MarjanVan wrote:

Furthermore, we have new documentation about MapMetrics (in PDF format) that will answer some of your questions. Would you like to receive this?

For your information: the new MapMetrics documentation I was talking about before is now available in the help section of MapMetrics.

Kind regards,
Marjan

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#47 2021-11-08 15:17:20

MarjanVan
Member
Registered: 2021-09-09
Posts: 18

Re: Hi, we are TomTom - let's exchange ideas

Jillis E wrote:
MarjanVan wrote:
Jillis E wrote:

MarjanVan, I think you should add your company to this list as well: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Com … d_Services

We are not in that list because we do not offer commercial OSM software or services. We are however in the list of Organised Editing Teams.

I don't agree. As far as I understand (but your information about what your goals are is still very limited!) TomTom is going to use OSM data to offer commercial services, hence my suggestion.

At this time we are not using OSM data in any of our commercial services. If this changes, we will abide by the OSM community guidelines.

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#48 2021-11-08 23:27:58

emvee
Member
From: Rotterdam, The Netherlands
Registered: 2010-07-27
Posts: 165

Re: Hi, we are TomTom - let's exchange ideas

MarjanVan wrote:

For your information: the new MapMetrics documentation I was talking about before is now available in the help section of MapMetrics.

Eens doorgelezen maar ik begrijp dat gereden routes worden vergeleken met dezelfde route maar dan door Grasshopper berekend op basis van OSM data. Hoe meer de gereden routes afwijken van de route van Grasshopper hoe roder de tile wordt.

Eens in de data bij mij in de beurt gekeken maar een patroon kan ik er niet in vinden en al helemaal niet aanwijzingen waar de kaart verbeteringen nodig heeft. Wat dat betreft is Scheve_prio1_wegen_QGC kaart van @PeeWee32 heel veel meer bruikbaar, zie ook Waar ligt OSM highway het meeste scheef?

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#49 2021-11-09 22:50:12

defluyter
Member
Registered: 2019-08-27
Posts: 22

Re: Hi, we are TomTom - let's exchange ideas

MarjanVan wrote:
MarjanVan wrote:

Furthermore, we have new documentation about MapMetrics (in PDF format) that will answer some of your questions. Would you like to receive this?

For your information: the new MapMetrics documentation I was talking about before is now available in the help section of MapMetrics.

Thank you for sharing this. As @emvee pointed out and as listed in the documentation, GraphHopper was used to match the TomTom GPS traces to the road network. I can imagine some of the false positives stem from this process, especially given unorthodox movements some carriers of TomTom GPS logging devices may exhibit (e.g. movement against driving direction). A huge step would be if TomTom open sourced (part of) these anonymised GPS traces to the (research) community, such that we could run our own map matching algorithms and routers against the data and come up with even more valuable insights into the quality of the OSM road network (I would personally be very interested in this since I have done map matching experiments against the OSM road network in a research setting in the past). Perhaps it would even be possible to launch a Kaggle challenge with a subset of the TomTom GPS traces, divided into a test and train set, in order for the larger community outside TomTom to come up with the best possible way of using this data to find potential improvements in OSM. Would love to hear your thoughts on this!

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#50 2021-11-10 09:29:32

Geim
Member
From: MM
Registered: 2017-03-29
Posts: 707

Re: Hi, we are TomTom - let's exchange ideas

defluyter wrote:
MarjanVan wrote:
MarjanVan wrote:

Furthermore, we have new documentation about MapMetrics (in PDF format) that will answer some of your questions. Would you like to receive this?

For your information: the new MapMetrics documentation I was talking about before is now available in the help section of MapMetrics.

A huge step would be if TomTom open sourced (part of) these anonymised GPS traces to the (research) community,

Yes, make a Tomtom heatmap, just as we now have from Strava. For now Mapmetrics is unusable. But even then, here in the Netherlands we have much more options with different layers like BGT.

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