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#1 2021-09-09 09:54:33

cmoffroad
Member
Registered: 2021-07-15
Posts: 32

Usage of highway=living_street + service=alley in residential areas

What is the correct way to tag roads located inside a gated residential community?

The majority in Chiang Mai has been tagged as [highway=residential + access=private], however, I noticed quite many have been changed or added as [living_street] or [service+alley].

This is confusing and could be misleading for new mappers.

A) [highway=living_street]

“a street where pedestrians have priority over cars, children can play on the street, maximum speed is low.”

Is this a common use case in Thailand? If yes:
- is there a default legal maximum speed (explicit) we could add to the global wiki country table?
- since most were added using only satellite imagery, how would you be able to decide between [residential] and [living_street] ?

B) [service=alley]

“An alley or alleyway is a narrow service road usually located between properties to provide access to things such as back gardens, rear entrances, fire exits, and storage areas. Alleys are normally found in urban areas and often run between the rear sides of buildings such as houses, and commercial premises.”

I have also come across many [highway=service + service=alley] in rural villages while doing ground surveys and all of them were narrow roads with permanent housing on at least one side:
- most could fit a small car
- a few could not

Based on the latest wiki update regarding minor road classification, I believed it was not tagged appropriately, so I changed them to:
- [highway=residential + lanes=1]
- [highway=path + motorcycle=yes]

However, I realized I should have asked first your opinion before changing them:

Besides its main purpose to access utilities, can [service+alley] be used in Thailand for narrow roads in residential areas/gated communities or any other road purposes?

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#2 2021-09-09 11:05:20

nitinatsangsit
Member
From: Bangkok
Registered: 2020-04-03
Posts: 75

Re: Usage of highway=living_street + service=alley in residential areas

For living_street, the former discussion https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=19316 seems like we should not used it in Thailand. By the way, stating it in the wiki is maybe too explicit, because it could be an appropriate case somewhere in Thailand, though it could be quite rare.

For service=alley, the former discussion https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=62073 appears that we are unable to reach an agreement. I strongly oppose using this for the main access to the residence. The use, rather than the width of the road, should be used to define the highway=* tag. But if the road is too narrow for a motor car to pass, changing it to highway=path is acceptable because the use is different.

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#3 2021-09-09 15:21:53

AlaskaDave
Member
From: Homer, Alaska ; Chiang Mai
Registered: 2013-09-21
Posts: 455
Website

Re: Usage of highway=living_street + service=alley in residential areas

I doubt there are many actual living_streets as defined in the Wiki in Thailand. However, there are mappers in Thailand who use the tag despite the cautions in the Wiki. I much prefer highway=residential with subtags to further characterize the way in question; width, lanes, surface, max_speed. etc., if it's located inside a gated community. Also, instead of access=private which would cause many routers to refuse to use those ways, I've begun to use ownership=private to tag driveways leaving the access tag out entirely. Perhaps that scenario could also be used for the residential streets within gated_communities. Many residential areas that are commonly called mubans in Thailand, I outline if possible and tag with place=neighborhood, name=*, and gated_community=yes.

Using service=ally is fine if it fits the description in the Wiki, which I agree with in general. Again, however, you'll find some mappers in Thailand who use this tag a lot. See the thread referenced above by nitinatsangsit to get a picture of the long-running controversy.

My 2 bhat contribution!

Last edited by AlaskaDave (2021-09-09 15:22:52)

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#4 2021-09-09 17:14:36

cmoffroad
Member
Registered: 2021-07-15
Posts: 32

Re: Usage of highway=living_street + service=alley in residential areas

nitinatsangsit, AlaskaDave, as always thank you for your input and the reference to the old discussions.

I would like to clarify further the perhaps misconceptions about the [service=alley] wiki page, which I believed its content may have been updated in the last few years:

0) description on the right explains the main purpose of the road is access to utilities

An alley is a service road usually located between properties for access to utilities

1) first section reiterates the same:

An alley or alleyway is a narrow service road usually located between properties to provide access things such as back gardens, rear entrances, fire exits, and storage areas. Alleys are normally found in urban areas and often run between the rear sides of buildings such as houses, and commercial premises.

2) second section is a special case for some medieval streets in Europe (not Thailand) where the main purpose is public through

In some (e.g. medieval European) settlements alleys may be the very narrow streets which run in-between buildings, providing public through-access

3) third section is a special case for narrow alleys in the USA (not Thailand)

Alley streets are a road classification found in Baltimore, Maryland, USA[1], and potentially other places. Alley streets are alleys by definition, i.e., they serve the rear of buildings, but are named. Most named alley streets have addresses assigned to them, often small homes or carriage-houses that have been converted into homes, due to Next Generation 911 (NG911) standards that require local governments to sign any public street with addresses. Alley streets may have sidewalks but they are small and designed to house trash cans or steps down from homes. Alley streets do not typically have on-street parking, which distinguishes them from residential streets.

As far as I can see, there are absolutely no [service=alley] definitions that match a narrow residential road in Thailand, specifically these facing the front entrance of buildings.

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#5 2021-09-09 20:24:33

AlaskaDave
Member
From: Homer, Alaska ; Chiang Mai
Registered: 2013-09-21
Posts: 455
Website

Re: Usage of highway=living_street + service=alley in residential areas

As far as I can see, there are absolutely no [service=alley] definitions that match a narrow residential road in Thailand, specifically these facing the front entrance of buildings.

I agree.

To add to your list of places having actual service=alley ways, Anchorage, Alaska has them as well. Used for access to garages, utilities, etc. Same with Eugene, Oregon, two places I'm fairly familiar with. These alleys fit the Wiki definition perfectly.

Last edited by AlaskaDave (2021-09-10 22:24:22)

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#6 2021-09-10 04:29:14

cmoffroad
Member
Registered: 2021-07-15
Posts: 32

Re: Usage of highway=living_street + service=alley in residential areas

AlaskaDave wrote:

To add to your list of places having actual service=alley ways, Anchorage, Alaska has them as well. Used for access to garages, utilities, etc. Same with Eugen, Oregon, two places I'm fairly familiar with. These alleys fit the Wiki definition perfectly.

Where is the like button when you need it wink

————————————————————————

Regarding [highway=living_street], further official quotes from global wiki:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag … ing_street

Road with very low-speed limits and other pedestrian friendly traffic rules.

The highway=living_street tag is used to tag living streets or other implementations of shared space. These type of roads have lower speed limits, and special traffic and parking rules compared to streets tagged using residential. A general feature of this type of road is, that the legislation either grants pedestrians the right of way over or at equal rights to other road users. The implicit speed limits set in legislation vary from "walking speed" up to 20 km/h, in some countries, the speed limit is given explicitly on the sign.

Routing and navigation software might try to avoid such areas when navigating cars.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key … road_types

residential streets where pedestrians have legal priority over cars, speeds are kept very low and where children are allowed to play on the street.

While I don’t deny living_street could be useful in special cases (I know at least a couple of dead-end streets it could apply based on local knowledge),
using it commonly for standard, through-access, roads in gated communities goes against any of these definitions.

- Would you let your kids play unattended in the streets of your Mu Ban?
- Would you prevent a navigation router from reaching your house in your Mu Ban?
- Is there known legislation/signage granting pedestrians priority over cars in your Mu Ban?

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#7 2021-09-10 14:21:04

nitinatsangsit
Member
From: Bangkok
Registered: 2020-04-03
Posts: 75

Re: Usage of highway=living_street + service=alley in residential areas

cmoffroad wrote:

As far as I can see, there are absolutely no [service=alley] definitions that match a narrow residential road in Thailand, specifically these facing the front entrance of buildings.

Agree.

For a living_street, as stated in wiki, it may be subject to some law, which is not the case in Thailand.

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