You are not logged in.

#26 2020-07-02 22:22:45

stephankn
Moderator
Registered: 2010-05-04
Posts: 554

Re: Tagging of healthcare facilities

To my understanding the doctor title in Thai simply has gender forms. So using it in Thai sounds natural. It does not sound like someone wanted to emphasize the gender of the doctor, did they?
This is a very fine detail of the language here and probably only to be discussed by native speakers.

I saw some using "Khlinik Mo (Somcha or whatever)i". I understand that "Mo" a less formal word for a doctor. And having no gender form.
So is the use of the formal title instead of some less formal one really that pushing towards they wanted to have the gender included?

If it really sounds like the gender is important to be in the name, then I would go for "Doctor Ms ..." as suggested by Paul. Maybe not that smooth, but it at least keeps the gender, which was skipped in the English language.

BTW: For completeness and enjoyment, in German the title is always "Doktor". You can address a female with "Frau Doktor". I also saw sometimes used "Doktorin" when used in a way to describe the role.

Offline

#27 2020-07-03 00:30:20

AlaskaDave
Member
From: Homer, Alaska ; Chiang Mai
Registered: 2013-09-21
Posts: 413
Website

Re: Tagging of healthcare facilities

Paul_12 said:

The long answer is that นายแพทย์ (nai phaet) and แพทย์หญิง (phaet ying) are professional titles for male and female doctors, which would normally be translated as just "doctor", so in this case a usual translation would be "Doctor Naphapakorn's Clinic" (whatever the spelling). That of course loses the indication of the doctor's gender.

Thank you. That helps my understanding quite a bit. The meaning isn't actually that the clinic is "staffed by female doctors" but that in Thailand a doctor's official title embodies a gender. I had always thought of Thai as a genderless language (except for the particles "kaa" and "krap") but languages are full of ambiguities. And I include English in that assessment because it's loaded with irregular verbs, etc. It's just as cumbersome for English speakers to use the pronouns "he" and "she" to describe an individual in a sentence but is forced to use "their" when referring to them both in the same sentence; the gender of the subject is lost in that case as well.

I think I agree with Stephan that if we decide it's important to make the distinction we should prefer to use the official titles "Doctor Ms.  ...'" and "Doctor Mr. ..." but IMO no matter what we decide here, that form is so cumbersome in English I would expect that many Thailand mappers would simply ignore the guideline. Therefore, we might be smart to follow Google's lead and ignore the issue entirely. Thai speakers will understand the clinic names quite well and after all, this is Thailand, not the UK or USA.

This has been a fun discussion. I'm too old and set in my ways to ever become a competent speaker of Thai but I nevertheless enjoy language related stuff.

Cheers,

Dave

Offline

#28 2020-07-03 20:14:13

Bernhard Hiller
Member
Registered: 2011-05-10
Posts: 999

Re: Tagging of healthcare facilities

AlaskaDave wrote:

I had always thought of Thai as a genderless language (except for the particles "kaa" and "krap")

... and dichan vs. phom. And likely some Indian loan words (though the angels / gods of Khrung thep maha nakhon have lost their Indian gender of deva/devi).

Offline

#29 2020-07-04 01:56:17

Paul_012
Member
Registered: 2011-08-05
Posts: 199

Re: Tagging of healthcare facilities

I've gone through all the nodes tagged with amenity=doctors, amenity=clinic, amenity=hospital, or healthcare=* in Thailand, and identified 851 THPHs, 459 of which have names. I'm proposing a mass edit to normalise their tagging to follow the new system (the following example uses Ko Samet/เกาะเสม็ด as a placeholder name):

amenity=clinic
healthcare=clinic
name=โรงพยาบาลส่งเสริมสุขภาพตำบลเกาะเสม็ด
name:en=Ko Samet Subdistrict Health Promoting Hospital
alt_name=รพ.สต.เกาะเสม็ด;สถานีอนามัยเกาะเสม็ด

Note that I've spelled the Thai name without a space between the prefix and the place name, since this is how the name usually appears in normal text. Please let me know if you think otherwise. I also have a few questions: (1) For THPHs whose names are unknown, should the blank name (โรงพยาบาลส่งเสริมสุขภาพตำบล / Subdistrict Health Promoting Hospital) be inserted in the name tag (similarly to the way they were before), or should I leave the name tag blank and use the description tag instead?  (2) Should I tag all of them with emergency=no? (There are three which currently have emergency=yes. Should they be overwritten?)

I've also identified some typos and other facilities mistagged as hospitals, and plan to fix these in a separate edit.

Offline

#30 2020-07-04 12:04:18

Russ McD
Member
From: Hereford & Chiang Mai.
Registered: 2011-04-17
Posts: 287

Re: Tagging of healthcare facilities

I have not been too opinionated on this matter ... I do understand as Westerners, we know there is a big difference between a clinic and a hospital.  On those grounds, I support Pauls tagging.
However, I do map these clinics when ever I see them in the wilds, as being a biker, sometimes any treatment a few km away, is better than riding 50km to a hospital.  On that basis, if a mass edit is done, I would definitely like to see the name:en tag include the words "Health Promoting Hospital", with or without the Sub District appearing.  Being in the description tag serves little purpose.
That way, at least users can locate the nearest, using a text based search on the GPS.

Offline

#31 2020-07-06 21:13:50

Paul_012
Member
Registered: 2011-08-05
Posts: 199

Re: Tagging of healthcare facilities

Here's the osm file for the edit. I'd appreciate a few eyes to check that I haven't messed up anything.

Offline

#32 2020-07-06 21:13:55

stephankn
Moderator
Registered: 2010-05-04
Posts: 554

Re: Tagging of healthcare facilities

I would use "Subdistrict Health Promoting Hospital" respectively the Thai text in case the tambon name is not known (or we are unable to type or find someone to type it).

For the mass edit: I am uncertain regarding the alt_name. Is it still that widely in use to have it included?
"emergency=no" would clearly help to avoid urgent cases heading there instead of calling the ambulance or driving to a hospital.

How likely is it that the three facilities with the emergency=yes tagging actually are equipped to handle it? Is there street-level imagery available? I have a tendency to remove it if there is no strong indication of them providing it. For recently tagged places contacting the editor might be an option.

To add a bit confusion to the discussion, I just found an image where they had upgraded their sign to a bi-lingual one. They used "promotion" and "Tambon". Still I think our translation is more standard and we should stick to it.

health-promotion-hospital.jpg
It is just borderline readable, sorry for the low image quality.

Edit:
My wife suggests to use a space in Thai name before the name of the Tambon. This is also a bit more gentle to renderers not capable of doing Thai word separation

Last edited by stephankn (2020-07-06 22:19:37)

Offline

#33 2020-07-06 23:01:20

AlaskaDave
Member
From: Homer, Alaska ; Chiang Mai
Registered: 2013-09-21
Posts: 413
Website

Re: Tagging of healthcare facilities

Thanks for the work on those names, Paul_12. I'm in favor of adding your edited data to OSM and agree with Stephan and his wife about adding the space in the Thai name. It will help non-Thai speakers to separate that important portion of the longer name. Also, I'm in favor of adding only the phrase "Subdistrict Health Promoting Hospital" in both Thai and English for those THPHs that have no name currently.

Offline

#34 2020-07-07 03:36:28

Paul_012
Member
Registered: 2011-08-05
Posts: 199

Re: Tagging of healthcare facilities

stephankn wrote:

For the mass edit: I am uncertain regarding the alt_name. Is it still that widely in use to have it included?

I think most urban-dwelling Thais are probably still more familiar with the sathani anamai name. They're often still referred to as such in the news, and I've seen quite a few which still have both old and new signs up.

"emergency=no" would clearly help to avoid urgent cases heading there instead of calling the ambulance or driving to a hospital.

How likely is it that the three facilities with the emergency=yes tagging actually are equipped to handle it? Is there street-level imagery available? I have a tendency to remove it if there is no strong indication of them providing it. For recently tagged places contacting the editor might be an option.

Unlikely, I think, if we're referring to strokes, heart attacks or broken bones. It's probably because each person's definition of "emergency" differs, and some may be thinking e.g. of small accidents requiring stitches.

To add a bit confusion to the discussion, I just found an image where they had upgraded their sign to a bi-lingual one. They used "promotion" and "Tambon". Still I think our translation is more standard and we should stick to it.

Hmm. If more of them appear, that would probably be indication that it's centrally standardised and it'd be better for us to follow the wording. Could wait and see though.

Offline

#35 2020-07-07 09:32:22

nitinatsangsit
Member
From: Bangkok
Registered: 2020-04-03
Posts: 30

Re: Tagging of healthcare facilities

stephankn wrote:

My wife suggests to use a space in Thai name before the name of the Tambon. This is also a bit more gentle to renderers not capable of doing Thai word separation

I'm not sure if this gonna be something like "tagging for renderer", since in official documents, the space is not appeared.
On the other hand, for geocoder, if we search for the full name of it, and if it is tagged with space, it won't be appeared in the result.

However, I suggest to tag short_name=รพ.สต.xxxx for the purpose of searching.

Last edited by nitinatsangsit (2020-07-07 09:33:29)

Offline

#36 2020-07-07 20:56:29

stephankn
Moderator
Registered: 2010-05-04
Posts: 554

Re: Tagging of healthcare facilities

@Paul_012 I had a look at your file. Without a diff view it is difficult so see what really changed but browsing through it looks fine. When doing the edit, please link in the comments to this thread to document the discussion regarding the mechanical edit.

I see some fixme tags added for places with missing names. Sounds reasonable as here opposed to completely missing tags we have some incomplete, generic name tag.

emergency=no has a definition in OSM, see the wiki:

If you know whether or not the hospital in question is equipped to deal with emergencies - this is called A&E (accidents and emergencies) in the UK and ER (emergency room) in the US - then you can add emergency=* with a value of "yes" or "no".

Searching in Thai script might be challenging. I think I would normalize the string first and then segment before searching. So spaces in the name tag would not harm. Certainly all major rendering engines we have will face issues with the long Thai words. They might line-break at bad locations or hide labels due to space restrictions.
I am not that certain about the rules when it is tolerated to add spaces between words in Thai. If it is not completely wrong I would still add them for the benefit of readability. The sign above has a space in Thai and a line-break (=space) as well.

As an example, TLTK woud segment like this:

โรงพยาบาลส่งเสริมสุขภาพตำบลบ้านท่าสี
โรงพยาบาล|ส่งเสริม|สุขภาพ|ตำบล|บ้าน|ท่า|สี
rongphayaban songsoem sukkhaphap tambon ban tha si

Offline

#37 2020-08-14 16:10:32

Paul_012
Member
Registered: 2011-08-05
Posts: 199

Re: Tagging of healthcare facilities

Sorry, I've been a bit preoccupied and just got around to making the edit (changeset). I opted for including the space, seeing as there's a line break in the usual signage. Please let me know if you come across any errors.

Offline

#38 2020-08-28 18:31:36

stephankn
Moderator
Registered: 2010-05-04
Posts: 554

Re: Tagging of healthcare facilities

I reviewed some of them. Looks good. I also adjusted my mapping process to remove the fixme when adding a name.

Offline

#39 2020-10-12 14:30:25

tagtheworld
Member
Registered: 2012-04-25
Posts: 206

Re: Tagging of healthcare facilities

hello you all _

many many thanks for raising this issue - and for all the answers. this is a incredibly important discussion !!!

i am very glad to be here !!


https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Tagtheworld - interested in all things concerning osm especially those related to the languages Perl, PHP, Python and the databases MySQL and Postgresql.

Offline

Board footer

Powered by FluxBB