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#1 2019-01-15 20:39:27

Marc Konjuhi
Member
Registered: 2016-05-11
Posts: 6

naming of Cities, Villages, other administrative names in Albanian

Hey,

just recently, the law for the Albanian language passed in the government and has been signed by Talat Xhaferi. My question now is, how should we name the cities and Villages where more than 20% are Albanians? Maybe like in Kosovo with the mixed name? (e.g.: https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/8416753)

Last edited by Marc Konjuhi (2019-01-15 20:53:33)

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#2 2019-01-15 22:25:48

Javier Gutiérrez
Member
Registered: 2015-11-14
Posts: 6

Re: naming of Cities, Villages, other administrative names in Albanian

Hello Marc,

Albanian is already used in many cities/villages in Macedonia (E.g. Tetove https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/6928757). We just need to add the Albanian version of the name as "name:sq" if the name is originally in Macedonian. Or the Macedonian version of the name as "name:mk" if the name is originally in Albanian.

Actually we can put the names of any city in the world in Albanian as "name:sq" (when available), it doesn't need to have 20% Albanian ethnicity.

Note that OSM follows "On the Ground Rule" (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Dis … round_Rule). Names recorded in name=* tag are ones that are locally used, especially ones typically signposted.

Cheers,
Javier

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#3 2019-01-15 23:06:11

bardhazizi
New Member
Registered: 2019-01-15
Posts: 1

Re: naming of Cities, Villages, other administrative names in Albanian

Hello Javier,

i think the signposts on the road are going to be replaced to include both languages, if they don't have that now.
In Kosovo, we use both names in the main name tag like here https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/4228419044 .
If the Village has more Albanians than Serbians, we put the Albanian name first and the other way around.
The first name is the name of the majority, then comes the name of the largest minority of that Village.
For Cities it is only the name of the majority, E.g. Gjilan (Albanian) or Gračanica (Serbian).

Cheers,
Bardh

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#4 2019-01-16 11:13:01

Javier Gutiérrez
Member
Registered: 2015-11-14
Posts: 6

Re: naming of Cities, Villages, other administrative names in Albanian

Hello Bardh,

Thank you very much for the information about Kosovo. In my opinion the naming according the amount of population per ethnicity goes against the naming convention of OSM. Two names in the field "name" might cause probems on search engines and different applications/APPs that search complete match.

Additionally this method is also difficult to maintain if the amount of one ethnicity surpasses the other one that was bigger before or if a new ethnicity comes you will need to add three names. Cyprus had the same dispute about the names and they solved it with the "On the Ground Rule". I advice Kosovo to do the same.

So, if new signs are going to be replaced in Macedonia, then we have to wait until they are in place and fill the "name" and "name:XX" fields accordingly. "name" should contain the name that comes first (only one name).

Cheers,
Javier

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#5 2019-01-20 19:34:30

Vigilante
New Member
Registered: 2015-03-12
Posts: 9

Re: naming of Cities, Villages, other administrative names in Albanian

Places in Macedonia as elsewhere may to be named in Albanian. or any language.
tag name=Macedonian/Albanian can not exist.
Why?
Macedonian language is official in Macedonia. Albanian, or any other minority language may be added as: name:sq/name:sr etc.
Why?
Because they are minority languages, not official languages of the country.

When you talk about "Kosovo" is see no double name in Gjilan. Albanian is co-official with serbian in Kosovo, right?
First settle those things in KiM, then come to set here.
Any edit, will be considered as provocation.

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#6 2019-01-22 03:53:51

Stereo
Member
Registered: 2011-04-22
Posts: 43

Re: naming of Cities, Villages, other administrative names in Albanian

Hello from the Data Working Group.

First of all, I note that "slash" naming is already used in a few other countries, for example Belgium, BiH or Switzerland.

We then urge all participants to re-read https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Disputes and to discuss things here instead of engaging in retaliatory mapping. OpenStreetMap is not a forum for politics, but a means for understanding. Disputes are not to be carried out in the map, but in discussion. Any editor who does not abide by this, and does not respect agreements in the area, or ultimately the "on the ground" rule, risks losing the right to participate in OpenStreetMap.

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#7 2019-01-22 16:42:23

ika-chan!
Member
Registered: 2016-10-23
Posts: 96

Re: naming of Cities, Villages, other administrative names in Albanian

I am neutral on whether the default country name should include the Albanian name. Probably because it is too early to make the call.


No one has to be 100% perfect at OpenStreetMap.

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#8 2019-01-22 19:54:48

Vigilante
New Member
Registered: 2015-03-12
Posts: 9

Re: naming of Cities, Villages, other administrative names in Albanian

I see just double standards here.
User Marc Konjuhi and his "wooden" lawyers bardhazizi and ElmedinRKS (users WITHOUT single edit on the map).
Those double standards i see in three countries with albanian minority.

1. Montenegro - Official languages: Serbian/Montenegrin
User Marc in tag "name=" put albanian name.

2. Kosovo - Official languages Albanian and serbian.
I see just albanian names, not serbian.

3. Macedonia - Official language: Macedonian, regional: albanian, serbian, turkish, romani...
User Marc renames name of the country in 2 languages.
Recent law of the languages says that there are 1 official language. Also official is any language which is spoken by 20+% of the population.
President of the Republic should sign this law. Law prior to 22 January 2019, is not signed.

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#9 2019-01-22 19:58:05

Vigilante
New Member
Registered: 2015-03-12
Posts: 9

Re: naming of Cities, Villages, other administrative names in Albanian

Until then, proper labeling of the names of places in Macedonia in albanian will be "name:sq="
Anything other is nationalistic provocation.

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#10 2019-01-22 23:46:26

Stereo
Member
Registered: 2011-04-22
Posts: 43

Re: naming of Cities, Villages, other administrative names in Albanian

Montenegro: Montenegrin in the latin script is used on the ground.

Kosovo: Albanian and Serbian in the latin script are used on the ground.

Macedonia: Macedonian (cyrillic script) and Albanian (latin script) are used on the ground.

The names as tagged on OSM should match that.

If this is mistaken, please share the information showing that the reality on the ground is different.

Last edited by Stereo (2019-01-23 01:00:46)

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#11 2019-01-23 15:00:18

Vigilante
New Member
Registered: 2015-03-12
Posts: 9

Re: naming of Cities, Villages, other administrative names in Albanian

On the local level. Not state level. Then why New York is not Nueva York?

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#12 2019-01-23 15:18:44

Vigilante
New Member
Registered: 2015-03-12
Posts: 9

Re: naming of Cities, Villages, other administrative names in Albanian

In Montenegro there are no montenegrin language for places: https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/708006203 (albanian)
In Kosovo I see no doubled name for capital or other towns.
But yes, reverting vandalism. Macedonian is bilingual now without law signed by the president, and without census of the population since 2002.
Very good.
For example there are road signs in Albania in Macedonian and greek, but places are nor labelled bilingual wink
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGIMyXCFiwY
Why?

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#13 2019-01-23 15:32:37

Vigilante
New Member
Registered: 2015-03-12
Posts: 9

Re: naming of Cities, Villages, other administrative names in Albanian

My opinion is that should be parallel with law.
When the president sign the language law, there should be name=Macedonian/Albanian, until then, this should be frozen.
Because in one country exist laws, laws are signed by the president of the Republic.
Please tell me, if one nation says that Macedonia is South Serbia, Macedonia is West Bulgaria, Macedonia is FYROM, Macedonia is Slavomacedonia, then we should add all of them in the name. Right?
But here I see doubled standards.

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#14 2019-01-23 16:36:31

Stereo
Member
Registered: 2011-04-22
Posts: 43

Re: naming of Cities, Villages, other administrative names in Albanian

In Macedonia, there is quite obviously a large Albanian minority on the ground, so having the country name as bilingual makes sense. Place names would obviously make more sense in somewhere like Aračinovo/Haraçinë than in Dojran. The country's finer constitutional details matter very little - the law project is cited as a proof that Albanian is an important language on the ground, which trumps the rest. You are right, entering every funny name other countries can come up with in the name tag makes no sense.

(South Serbia would be a funny name and a good troll lol.)

In Kosovo, the local community has agreed to name places according to how many people who speak that language live there. See for example https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/5830 … 1/20.86551 for a Serbian-majority city with a sizeable Albanian minority. The latin script is used, both on the map and on the ground, except at christian orthodox sites where Cyrillic is preferred. Any changes to that consensus should be discussed with the local community and informed by information on the ground.

Please see also https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/w/images … mation.pdf

In any case, everyone in this thread needs to stop engaging in this dispute. Deliberately changing place names in ways that don't match the reality on the ground to antagonise other mappers is not OK, and will result in a ban.

Last edited by Stereo (2019-01-23 16:40:44)

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