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#1 2018-09-22 20:12:23

henke54
Member
Registered: 2015-03-17
Posts: 577

Pavement

I am just wondering, why is this 'statement' saying to avoid the word "pavement" in OSM ? roll
The word 'pavement' (all-encompassing) could be used as key for all 'surfaces' of roads etc., and then added with a (for example) asphalt=yes.
Or(for example) key:pavement and paving_tiles=yes (and in this case for example) also add brick(tiles)=yes or setts=yes or concrete(tiles)=yes or wood(tiles)=yes or whatever ... wink

Last edited by henke54 (2018-09-22 23:28:21)

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#2 2018-09-22 20:24:30

hadw
Member
Registered: 2014-09-02
Posts: 1,081

Re: Pavement

pavement, in British English means sidewalk, in US English. The use of sidewalk in OSM is an exception to the normal British English rule.

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#3 2018-09-22 20:43:56

henke54
Member
Registered: 2015-03-17
Posts: 577

Re: Pavement

hadw wrote:

pavement, in British English means sidewalk, in US English. The use of sidewalk in OSM is an exception to the normal British English rule.

Keith Bradford at wordreference on Dec 18, 2012 wrote:

Well, believe it or not, the technical British word for the American pavement is... pavement! But I guess only road engineers would know that - or people (like me) who translate their writings. Certainly I'd use road/roadway/highway in everyday speech.

But for the record, a British composite pavement (concrete base layer + bitumen top layer) is a US mixed pavement, and a UK rigid pavement (all concrete) is an inflexible pavement in the US.

EDIT: also, if OSM 'insists' of using only British English words, why (for example) is then the (US English) word 'apartment' then approved , because the British English word for it is 'flat' ? roll

Last edited by henke54 (2018-09-22 21:13:36)

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#4 2018-09-23 00:06:02

hadw
Member
Registered: 2014-09-02
Posts: 1,081

Re: Pavement

The technical word for British English pavement is footway, but most people would not understand that.

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#5 2018-09-23 09:32:35

henke54
Member
Registered: 2015-03-17
Posts: 577

Re: Pavement

hadw wrote:

The technical word for British English pavement is footway, but most people would not understand that.

footway is footway..nothing to misunderstand that wink ...but this , i find 'confusing' ->

A highway feature is predominantly paved along its length; i.e., it is covered with paving stones, concrete or bitumen. This value gives only a rough description; use a more precise value if possible.

the word(s) 'paved' should then be 'replaced' with 'covered' or something, because the word(s) with 'pave' (paving/paved/etc.) in it, seems (ONLY in British English) something to do with 'loose block-elements', and not (as in American English) with a 'one-whole-road-cover', like concrete/asphalt/etc. ... roll

The British are sometimes a 'stubborn tribe', with their rules, like driving left, or instead of metric standards, still using their 'ancient' imperial units ... i still get a 'hassle' when i want to repare my water-and heatingpipes, with a mix from their inches and cm ...  see also -> NASA lost a $125 million Mars orbiter because one engineering team used metric units while another used English units for a key spacecraft operation roll

Edit : it seems that the Dutch have made a distinction and use the word 'element hardening' (in this issue) instead of pavement or surface ... smart ... tongue

Last edited by henke54 (2018-09-23 14:46:22)

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#6 2018-09-24 12:34:59

henke54
Member
Registered: 2015-03-17
Posts: 577

Re: Pavement

henke54 wrote:
hadw wrote:

The technical word for British English pavement is footway, but most people would not understand that.

footway is footway..nothing to misunderstand that wink ...but this , i find 'confusing' ->

A highway feature is predominantly paved along its length; i.e., it is covered with paving stones, concrete or bitumen. This value gives only a rough description; use a more precise value if possible.

the word(s) 'paved' should then be 'replaced' with 'covered' or something, because the word(s) with 'pave' (paving/paved/etc.) in it, seems (ONLY in British English) something to do with 'loose block-elements', and not (as in American English) with a 'one-whole-road-cover', like concrete/asphalt/etc. ... roll

The British are sometimes a 'stubborn tribe', with their rules, like driving left, or instead of metric standards, still using their 'ancient' imperial units ... i still get a 'hassle' when i want to repare my water-and heatingpipes, with a mix from their inches and cm ...  see also -> NASA lost a $125 million Mars orbiter because one engineering team used metric units while another used English units for a key spacecraft operation roll

Edit : it seems that the Dutch have made a distinction and use the word 'element hardening' (in this issue) instead of pavement or surface ... smart ... tongue

As a matter of fact, wouldn't it be better to making no mention at all of paved/unpaved, but instead using hardened/not hardened (in that article).
In the section hardened, one can then add 3 categories (concrete / asphalt / tiles), and tiles can have ; cobblestones/setts/bricks/wood planks/metal plates/etc. +eventually for other 'sub-categories'(=yes), to avoid all this crap ? tongue
example 1 ; surface=tiles + tiles=setts
example 2 ; surface=concrete

Last edited by henke54 (2018-09-24 18:24:29)

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#7 2018-09-24 19:46:27

alester
Member
Registered: 2011-09-21
Posts: 174

Re: Pavement

If you feel you can make a good enough case to change the 7 million surface=paved or unpaved values to something else, then go for it. I expect you won't get much support, though.

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#8 2018-09-24 20:32:53

henke54
Member
Registered: 2015-03-17
Posts: 577

Re: Pavement

alester wrote:

If you feel you can make a good enough case to change the 7 million surface=paved or unpaved values to something else, then go for it. I expect you won't get much support, though.

i know, but making an exception (like sidewalk or apartment) of pavement instead of surface (in this case) to the normal British English rule is 'doable' , not ? wink

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#9 2018-09-25 04:21:15

escada
Moderator
Registered: 2011-08-13
Posts: 1,442

Re: Pavement

If with "doable"  you mean technically, then yes.

If you mean that you will get enough support to do it, then no. Besides having to retag 7 million objects (which will have grown by the time you get through the proposal process for the new tag), you demand that data consumers will support 2 schema's for many years to go.

Until now I don't see what problem you try to solve by shuffling a few tags. E.g. what is the benefit of replacing paved with hardened ?

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#10 2018-09-25 10:34:27

henke54
Member
Registered: 2015-03-17
Posts: 577

Re: Pavement

escada wrote:

Until now I don't see what problem you try to solve by shuffling a few tags. E.g. what is the benefit of replacing paved with hardened ?

All i want to say is ; delete this ; "to avoid the word "pavement" in OSM", and make "pavement" an exception to the British rule (like sidewalk and apartment) , because as of now, there is no 'logic sense' in 'to avoid pavement' .... something that is 'paved', IS a pavement ... wink  ->
Also ...a grass_paver is categorised in 'unpaved' ...  'not logic' ... because the word 'paver' in it ... tongue

Last edited by henke54 (2018-09-25 11:06:47)

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#11 2018-09-25 13:35:19

escada
Moderator
Registered: 2011-08-13
Posts: 1,442

Re: Pavement

So adapt the wiki page (and perhaps fight with the wiki maintainers about the change).

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#12 2018-09-25 14:12:00

hadw
Member
Registered: 2014-09-02
Posts: 1,081

Re: Pavement

Something paved is not a pavement to the man in the street in England, unless it is also a footway.  The reason for avoiding "pavement" is that it has different common language meanings in the US and UK, but those meaning both relate to roads.  I think sidewalk was used because most British English speakers are aware of the meaning, and it has no conflicting meaning in the UK.  The British English technical term, footway, is not as familiar to UK residents as sidewalk.

"Apartment" is increasingly being used in British English, so is not exclusively American.

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#13 2018-09-25 15:06:17

henke54
Member
Registered: 2015-03-17
Posts: 577

Re: Pavement

hadw wrote:

Something paved is not a pavement to the man in the street in England, unless it is also a footway.  The reason for avoiding "pavement" is that it has different common language meanings in the US and UK, but those meaning both relate to roads.  I think sidewalk was used because most British English speakers are aware of the meaning, and it has no conflicting meaning in the UK.  The British English technical term, footway, is not as familiar to UK residents as sidewalk.

"Apartment" is increasingly being used in British English, so is not exclusively American.

Something paved IS a pavement ... nothing more logically as that ... British or not British ...
Also, ALL roads are 'paved', even a path in the jungle, cut through with a jungle knife , is 'paved' , because 'paving' means 'originally' ; making conditions necessary for passing through ... so, all roads are paved, but not 'hardened' ... dilemma...dilemma ...

And now i stop with this discussion, because it is to no avail here ... roll

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#14 2018-09-26 06:11:24

escada
Moderator
Registered: 2011-08-13
Posts: 1,442

Re: Pavement

IMHO You try to add too much meaning to tags. Just use what it there. I see little of no value in trying to review each and every tag with the help of a dictionary, years after they were introduced and used thousands  of times since then.

It's much more useful to go out and collect data of objects that are not mapped yet. Or to help define tagging schema's for concepts that cannot be mapped yet.

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#15 2018-09-27 10:10:42

henke54
Member
Registered: 2015-03-17
Posts: 577

Re: Pavement

escada wrote:

Or to help define tagging schema's for concepts that cannot be mapped yet.

what do you mean by that ? neutral

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#16 2018-09-27 11:40:59

escada
Moderator
Registered: 2011-08-13
Posts: 1,442

Re: Pavement

Often people ask on the tagging mailing list how they can map a particular object for which there is no tag yet. After some discussion they formulate a proposal which is further discussed, brought to voting and hopefully accepted.

One of the current discussions is about a default:language tag, but there were discussions on power lines, etc in the past

p.s. I do remember you do not like mailing lists, but the place to discuss  tagging is the tagging mailing list.

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#17 2018-09-27 14:15:21

henke54
Member
Registered: 2015-03-17
Posts: 577

Re: Pavement

escada wrote:

One of the current discussions is about a default:language tag, but there were discussions on power lines, etc in the past

I saw that discussion about 'language tag' on that mailing list, but isn't that 'problem' solved with simple adding a wikidata code to boundaries/etc. ,and then there adding all kind of stuff, like languages/etc. ? Even the Dutch people seems to have 'wikidated' all streets there ? tongue
If there was some kind of WMS-layer-JOSM-plugin , with wikidata codes , wouldn't that also maybe 'helpfull' ... ?

Last edited by henke54 (2018-09-27 17:43:32)

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