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#51 2018-02-25 21:18:04

SomeoneElse
Member
Registered: 2010-10-13
Posts: 893

Re: International Admin Boundaries 2018

Taking https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/126925545 as an example, it's currently a member of several relations.

Somaliland https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/3586169 (admin level 3, which is often used for disputed areas)
Sanaag https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/1720065 (admin level 4)
Bari https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/1720054 (admin level 4)
and 2 other admin level 6 boundaries.
it's not part of Somalia https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/192799 (admin level 2)

Are you saying that:
* It _should_ be part of the Somalia country boundary
* It _should not_ be part of the Somaliland "disputed area" boundary
* One of the admin levels on one of the relations is wrong, and if so, which one?
* Something else?

Please be aware that tiles in OSM's "standard layer" may be out of date (especially at the zoom levels at which you view countries) and that at low zooms admin level 3 boundaries seem to look very similar to admin level 2 ones.

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#52 2018-02-26 09:49:56

wambacher
Member
From: Schlangenbad/Wambach, Germany
Registered: 2009-12-16
Posts: 15,205
Website

Re: International Admin Boundaries 2018

Moin,

hier die aktuelle Missing Boundaries-Auswertung: https://wambachers-osm.website/index.ph … 2018-02-26

Der Datenstand ist vom 2018-02-25 23:03:02+01

14 Missings und keine kritische Grenze.
   
Gruss
walter

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#53 2018-02-27 11:16:47

wambacher
Member
From: Schlangenbad/Wambach, Germany
Registered: 2009-12-16
Posts: 15,205
Website

Re: International Admin Boundaries 2018

Moin,

hier die aktuelle Missing Boundaries-Auswertung: https://wambachers-osm.website/index.ph … 2018-02-27

Der Datenstand ist vom 2018-02-26 23:02:02+01

18 Missings und eine kritische Grenze.
   
Gruss
walter

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#54 2018-02-28 11:17:52

wambacher
Member
From: Schlangenbad/Wambach, Germany
Registered: 2009-12-16
Posts: 15,205
Website

Re: International Admin Boundaries 2018

Moin,

hier die aktuelle Missing Boundaries-Auswertung: https://wambachers-osm.website/index.ph … 2018-02-28

Der Datenstand ist vom 2018-02-27 23:02:02+01

39 Missings und drei kritische Grenzen.
   
Gruss
walter

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#55 2018-03-01 12:25:36

wambacher
Member
From: Schlangenbad/Wambach, Germany
Registered: 2009-12-16
Posts: 15,205
Website

Re: International Admin Boundaries 2018

Moin,

hier die aktuelle Missing Boundaries-Auswertung: https://wambachers-osm.website/index.ph … 2018-03-01

Der Datenstand ist vom 2018-02-28 23:02:03+01

39 Missings und zwei kritische Grenzen.
   
Gruss
walter

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#56 2018-03-02 10:14:51

wambacher
Member
From: Schlangenbad/Wambach, Germany
Registered: 2009-12-16
Posts: 15,205
Website

Re: International Admin Boundaries 2018

Moin,

hier die aktuelle Missing Boundaries-Auswertung: https://wambachers-osm.website/index.ph … 2018-03-02

Der Datenstand ist vom 2018-03-01 23:01:02+01

30 Missings und drei kritische Grenzen.
   
Gruss
walter

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#57 2018-03-02 17:33:25

SomeoneElse
Member
Registered: 2010-10-13
Posts: 893

Re: International Admin Boundaries 2018

Re Somalia / Somaililand (trying to wrap things up in the absence of further comment from the person who thought OSM was wrong):

What OSM has are areas that are essentially the maximal "claim" for both Somalia (as admin_level=2) and Somaliland (as admin_level=3).  This is fairly in keeping with other places around the world.  It's true here (as elsewhere) that both entities' control over those areas is weak.  There are other lower-level entities there (e.g. Puntland) that as I understand it don't claim statehood, so Puntland in OSM is probably also OK, even though it appears to be in dispute with Somaliland.  Essentially then what OSM has is probably "as good as it can be" within OSM's data model. 

Of course, if someone has other information (and not just from the usual news sources, wikipedia and the CIA World Factbook) then please do say so - my knowledge of the situation in this part of Africa is remote and likely to remain so.

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#58 2018-03-02 18:44:53

wambacher
Member
From: Schlangenbad/Wambach, Germany
Registered: 2009-12-16
Posts: 15,205
Website

Re: International Admin Boundaries 2018

SomeoneElse wrote:

 
Of course, if someone has other information (and not just from the usual news sources, wikipedia and the CIA World Factbook) then please do say so

Sorry, don't know other sources.

tnx
walter

Last edited by wambacher (2018-03-02 18:45:07)

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#59 2018-03-03 11:48:28

wambacher
Member
From: Schlangenbad/Wambach, Germany
Registered: 2009-12-16
Posts: 15,205
Website

Re: International Admin Boundaries 2018

Moin,

hier die aktuelle Missing Boundaries-Auswertung: https://wambachers-osm.website/index.ph … 2018-03-03

Der Datenstand ist vom 2018-03-02 23:01:02+01

58 Missings und 5 kritische Grenzen.
   
Gruss
walter

Last edited by wambacher (2018-03-03 12:17:49)

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#60 2018-03-03 12:19:20

wambacher
Member
From: Schlangenbad/Wambach, Germany
Registered: 2009-12-16
Posts: 15,205
Website

Re: International Admin Boundaries 2018

Irgendwas ist komisch: "defekte" Länder und ich kann auf den 1. Blick fast nix finden. Sieht einer mehr?
Ich schau mir mal den Log der Auswertung an.

In Lettland hat wer um Mitternacht rum gebastelt. da kann sowas schon mal vorkommen.
BELarus auch.

Ansonsten ist es neben DEU fast der ganze Ostblock.

Grübelnde Grüsse
walter

EDIT: Im Log ist nix Schlimmes zu finden, nur dass diese Länder halt fehlen sad

Last edited by wambacher (2018-03-03 12:45:22)

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#61 2018-03-03 17:31:52

Tedros
Member
Registered: 2018-02-25
Posts: 7

Re: International Admin Boundaries 2018

SomeoneElse wrote:

Re Somalia / Somaililand (trying to wrap things up in the absence of further comment from the person who thought OSM was wrong):

What OSM has are areas that are essentially the maximal "claim" for both Somalia (as admin_level=2) and Somaliland (as admin_level=3).  This is fairly in keeping with other places around the world.  It's true here (as elsewhere) that both entities' control over those areas is weak.  There are other lower-level entities there (e.g. Puntland) that as I understand it don't claim statehood, so Puntland in OSM is probably also OK, even though it appears to be in dispute with Somaliland.  Essentially then what OSM has is probably "as good as it can be" within OSM's data model. 

Of course, if someone has other information (and not just from the usual news sources, wikipedia and the CIA World Factbook) then please do say so - my knowledge of the situation in this part of Africa is remote and likely to remain so.



Hi I am discussing this matter with Data working group offline to make the map more authentic than what is depicted.

Last edited by Tedros (2018-03-03 17:32:08)

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#62 2018-03-03 17:33:21

Tedros
Member
Registered: 2018-02-25
Posts: 7

Re: International Admin Boundaries 2018

SomeoneElse wrote:

Taking https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/126925545 as an example, it's currently a member of several relations.

Somaliland https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/3586169 (admin level 3, which is often used for disputed areas)
Sanaag https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/1720065 (admin level 4)
Bari https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/1720054 (admin level 4)
and 2 other admin level 6 boundaries.
it's not part of Somalia https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/192799 (admin level 2)

Are you saying that:
* It _should_ be part of the Somalia country boundary
* It _should not_ be part of the Somaliland "disputed area" boundary
* One of the admin levels on one of the relations is wrong, and if so, which one?
* Something else?

Please be aware that tiles in OSM's "standard layer" may be out of date (especially at the zoom levels at which you view countries) and that at low zooms admin level 3 boundaries seem to look very similar to admin level 2 ones.

I am exactly saying the below part here.
* It _should_ be part of the Somalia country boundary 

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#63 2018-03-03 19:44:09

wambacher
Member
From: Schlangenbad/Wambach, Germany
Registered: 2009-12-16
Posts: 15,205
Website

Re: International Admin Boundaries 2018

Tedros wrote:
SomeoneElse wrote:

Somaliland https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/3586169 (admin level 3, which is often used for disputed areas)
Sanaag https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/1720065 (admin level 4)
Bari https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/1720054 (admin level 4)

and 2 other admin level 6 boundaries.
it's not part of Somalia https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/192799 (admin level 2)

Are you saying that:
* It _should_ be part of the Somalia country boundary
* It _should not_ be part of the Somaliland "disputed area" boundary
* One of the admin levels on one of the relations is wrong, and if so, which one?
* Something else?

I am exactly saying the below part here.
* It _should_ be part of the Somalia country boundary

Ok, thats a statement  - but which area or areas do you mean in detail?

please be more specific.

@SomeoneElse: "it's not part of Somalia"

do you say:
- It is not part of Somalia in the real world
or
- At this moment it is not part of the OSM-View of Somalia
or
- something else ?

and which two al6 are you (andy) talking about?

tried to create an (uncomplete) image:
tn_somalia.png

All areas a part of somalia(2) in OSM and some of them do overlap.

Regards
walter

Last edited by wambacher (2018-03-03 19:45:37)

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#64 2018-03-03 20:06:15

SomeoneElse
Member
Registered: 2010-10-13
Posts: 893

Re: International Admin Boundaries 2018

Re Somalia, see https://www.openstreetmap.org/user_blocks/1792 and the comment on https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/56852460 .  I don't want to dismiss out of hand the idea that the admin levels in OSM are wrong here, but we need at least some evidence saying what the problem actually is and what the correct admin levels are as of 2018.  Currently OSM (until the recent unilateral changes) reflected pretty much what https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_So … present%29 and other sources said - Somali claim over the whole country; Somaliland claim over the area OSM had as admin_level=3.  OSM didn't reflect the Puntland/Somaliland dispute, the issues described at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somalilan … r_disputes or the rest of the civil war issues concentrated in the south of Somalia, but I don't think that it would be feasible for us to do so with rigid "admin_level" boundaries.

Last edited by SomeoneElse (2018-03-03 20:07:05)

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#65 2018-03-03 20:13:28

SomeoneElse
Member
Registered: 2010-10-13
Posts: 893

Re: International Admin Boundaries 2018

Tedros wrote:

I am exactly saying the below part here.
* It _should_ be part of the Somalia country boundary 

That's contradicted by your most recent edit!

Also, do you have any evidence of what the current situation on the ground is?  We're trying to get the boundaries right here.  Does my summary at https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtop … 14#p687614 make any sense to you?  If not, what parts are incorrect?

Last edited by SomeoneElse (2018-03-03 20:22:07)

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#66 2018-03-03 20:18:24

SomeoneElse
Member
Registered: 2010-10-13
Posts: 893

Re: International Admin Boundaries 2018

wambacher wrote:

@SomeoneElse: "it's not part of Somalia"

do you say:
- It is not part of Somalia in the real world
or
- At this moment it is not part of the OSM-View of Somalia
or
- something else ?

and which two al6 are you (andy) talking about?

I was talking about https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/126925545 (the context was "Taking https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/126925545 as an example, it's currently a member of several relations.").  Currently it's a member of:


    Relation Somaliland (3586169) (as outer)
    Relation Sanaag (1720065) (as outer)
    Relation Bari (1720054) (as outer)
    Relation Laasqoray لاسقرى (1720121) (as outer)
    Relation Bossaso بوصاصو (1720083) (as outer)

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#67 2018-03-03 21:20:11

wambacher
Member
From: Schlangenbad/Wambach, Germany
Registered: 2009-12-16
Posts: 15,205
Website

Re: International Admin Boundaries 2018

SomeoneElse wrote:

I was talking about https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/126925545 (the context was "Taking https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/126925545 as an example, it's currently a member of several relations.").  Currently it's a member of:


    Relation Somaliland (3586169) (as outer)
    Relation Sanaag (1720065) (as outer)
    Relation Bari (1720054) (as outer)
    Relation Laasqoray لاسقرى (1720121) (as outer)
    Relation Bossaso بوصاصو (1720083) (as outer)

ok, when i add Laasqoray and Bossaso to my map i'm geting this:
tn_somalia2.png

and this is ok for me. All areas are contained by somalia(2).
tn_somalia3.png


Because i don't really know whats going on, i'll be quiet now wink

regards
walter

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#68 2018-03-04 00:40:58

FvGordon
Member
Registered: 2009-08-29
Posts: 654

Re: International Admin Boundaries 2018

In Brasilien hat ein neuer Mapper in seinen ersten beiden Änderungssätzen mit iD viele "überflüssige Linien" entfernt - vermutlich unsere Grenz-Segmente, mit denen er nichts anfangen konnte.

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#69 2018-03-04 01:00:35

wambacher
Member
From: Schlangenbad/Wambach, Germany
Registered: 2009-12-16
Posts: 15,205
Website

Re: International Admin Boundaries 2018

FvGordon wrote:

In Brasilien hat ein neuer Mapper in seinen ersten beiden Änderungssätzen mit iD viele "überflüssige Linien" entfernt - vermutlich unsere Grenz-Segmente, mit denen er nichts anfangen konnte.

Toll.

hast du ihn "angeknurrt"? wink

Gruss
walter

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#70 2018-03-04 08:23:46

FvGordon
Member
Registered: 2009-08-29
Posts: 654

Re: International Admin Boundaries 2018

wambacher wrote:

hast du ihn "angeknurrt"? wink

Erst heute morgen (in diesem CS).

Franz

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#71 2018-03-04 08:31:10

kreuzschnabel
Member
From: Taunusstein ± 1300 km
Registered: 2015-07-03
Posts: 4,018

Re: International Admin Boundaries 2018

FvGordon wrote:

Erst heute morgen (in diesem CS).

Der portugiesische Kommentar hier scheint mir aber auch deutlich zu sein – oder zumindest was, was der Goggele-Übersetzer draus macht.

--ks


Avatar-Bild von Elaine R. Wilson, www.naturespicsonline.com, CC-BY-SA 3.0
Mitmachen? Klar! Mein OSM-Tutorial auf Deutsch

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#72 2018-03-04 12:02:54

wambacher
Member
From: Schlangenbad/Wambach, Germany
Registered: 2009-12-16
Posts: 15,205
Website

Re: International Admin Boundaries 2018

Moin,

hier die aktuelle Missing Boundaries-Auswertung: https://wambachers-osm.website/index.ph … 2018-03-04

Der Datenstand ist vom 2018-03-03 23:01:02+01

15 Missings und zwei kritische Grenzen.
   
Gruss
walter

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#73 2018-03-05 09:33:40

wambacher
Member
From: Schlangenbad/Wambach, Germany
Registered: 2009-12-16
Posts: 15,205
Website

Re: International Admin Boundaries 2018

Moin,

hier die aktuelle Missing Boundaries-Auswertung: https://wambachers-osm.website/index.ph … 2018-03-05

Der Datenstand ist vom 2018-03-04 23:01:02+01

33 Missings und zwei kritische Grenzen.
   
Gruss
walter

Last edited by wambacher (2018-03-05 09:34:02)

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#74 2018-03-06 11:18:08

wambacher
Member
From: Schlangenbad/Wambach, Germany
Registered: 2009-12-16
Posts: 15,205
Website

Re: International Admin Boundaries 2018

Moin,

hier die aktuelle Missing Boundaries-Auswertung: https://wambachers-osm.website/index.ph … 2018-03-06

Der Datenstand ist vom 2018-03-05 23:01:03+01

13 Missings und keine kritische Grenze.
   
Gruss
walter

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#75 2018-03-07 11:46:58

wambacher
Member
From: Schlangenbad/Wambach, Germany
Registered: 2009-12-16
Posts: 15,205
Website

Re: International Admin Boundaries 2018

Moin,

hier die aktuelle Missing Boundaries-Auswertung: https://wambachers-osm.website/index.ph … 2018-03-07

Der Datenstand ist vom 2018-03-06 23:01:02+01

37 Missings und eine kritische Grenze.
   
Gruss
walter

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