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#1 2017-10-22 01:48:07

kocio
Administrator
From: Warszawa
Registered: 2013-09-04
Posts: 3,330
Website

Common country name (Россия)

Hi,

Sorry for English, but my Russian is too basic to communicate (especially write). I would like to change "name" tag of your country relation to just "Россия" (or maybe "Росси́я"?) instead of current "Российская Федерация":

http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/60189

The reasons are:
- name tag is intended for common names, official names have their own tag ("official_name")
- probably all the other countries use common names, if possible, and in this case such name exists

I don't want to make such general changes without consulting local community, so - what do you think about it?

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#2 2017-10-22 03:39:39

vvoovv
Moderator
Registered: 2008-03-04
Posts: 2,259

Re: Common country name (Россия)

I don't see any problem, since according to the article 2 of the Russian constitution the names Russian Federation and Russia are equal:

Наименования Российская Федерация и Россия равнозначны.

The names "Russian Federation" and "Russia" shall be equal.

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#3 2017-10-22 10:22:32

esaulenka
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From: Москва
Registered: 2010-08-21
Posts: 1,194
Website

Re: Common country name (Россия)

Зато я вижу. Надо ещё поправить name:ru и alt_name.

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#4 2017-10-22 15:48:35

SilentCat
Member
Registered: 2016-08-29
Posts: 42

Re: Common country name (Россия)

So, why common used official_name Finland not used and used "local" name Suomi

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#5 2017-10-22 18:18:16

kocio
Administrator
From: Warszawa
Registered: 2013-09-04
Posts: 3,330
Website

Re: Common country name (Россия)

Some local communities use different languages than what I would expect - for example India community is using English a lot for "name" tag and I don't know why not Hindi+Devanagari for example. But the choice of language is just another thing than using common vs official form. Finland/Suomi/Russia/Россия are all common forms, so it's up to the community to pick one (or more, like in "België - Belgique - Belgien") and they all belong to "name", while Republic of Finland/Suomen tasavalta/Russian Federation/Российская Федерация are all official forms and belong to "official_name".

In your case the language and script are the same as I would expect (Russian+Cyrillic), so I guess "Россия" is the only common form that counts and Russia/Rosja/රුසියාව etc. are not suitable. wink

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#6 2017-10-22 20:29:10

newpavlov
Member
Registered: 2014-03-28
Posts: 511

Re: Common country name (Россия)

I don't have any objections, but ideally we also want consistency across other name tags too. So I think we should use "Россия" for name (+name:ru) and translations without "federation" part for name:* tags and "Российская Федерация" for alt_name and respective translations for alt_names:* tags.

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#7 2017-10-23 08:38:19

wowik
Member
From: Zelenograd
Registered: 2009-09-29
Posts: 8,720

Re: Common country name (Россия)

Why do you want to change name? I think it is rather long for some render. Do not map for render!

Both name are officially equivalent so your do not worry about that.
I think current name is OK.

Last edited by wowik (2017-10-23 08:54:10)

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#8 2017-10-23 08:57:09

wowik
Member
From: Zelenograd
Registered: 2009-09-29
Posts: 8,720

Re: Common country name (Россия)

Russia consists of many regions and its mapped with long oficcial names. So if we change name for country we should change name to regions too

Last edited by wowik (2017-10-23 09:04:54)

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#9 2017-10-23 09:33:53

kocio
Administrator
From: Warszawa
Registered: 2013-09-04
Posts: 3,330
Website

Re: Common country name (Россия)

wowik wrote:

Why do you want to change name? I think it is rather long for some render. Do not map for render!

I gave my reasons at the beginning. We have plenty of space for official name of Russia, so rendering space is definitely not a problem, but it's just not a common name and almost all the other countries use common names, so for me it's about following tag definition and consistency at the planet level.

wowik wrote:

Russia consists of many regions and its mapped with long oficcial names. So if we change name for country we should change name to regions too

Name (common/official/...) is very general feature, it applies to all the objects, not only countries and regions. It makes sense to start with such big entities, because there isn't too many of them, but it should no stop here.

newpavlov wrote:

"Российская Федерация" for alt_name and respective translations for alt_names:* tags.

It's an official name and we have tag for it, alt_name is the last resort category: "If there is a name that does not fit in any of the above keys, alt_name can be used".

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#10 2017-10-23 10:26:29

fserges
Member
From: St.Petersburg/Russia
Registered: 2010-11-08
Posts: 3,854

Re: Common country name (Россия)

wowik wrote:

Russia consists of many regions and its mapped with long oficcial names. So if we change name for country we should change name to regions too

В своё время меня коробило что сократили названия республик. Теперь это Чечня, Дагестан, Татарстан. Логика была примерно такая же как и для "Россия". Так что это не более чем продолжение тренда по переименовыванию республик.

P.S. При этом у нас есть "Республика Алтай" и "Республика Бурятия". Даже на уровне регионов нет единообразия smile


Бывший редактор ОСМ

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#11 2017-10-23 10:38:44

wowik
Member
From: Zelenograd
Registered: 2009-09-29
Posts: 8,720

Re: Common country name (Россия)

Еще Якутия веселая.
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/151234

Но тут есть две большие разницы.
У некоторых регионов два официальных названия, короткое и длинное

2. Наименования Республика Татарстан и Татарстан равнозначны.

, а у других одно только длинное, а короткое - это "народная" самодеятельность.

Last edited by wowik (2017-10-23 10:56:09)

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#12 2017-10-23 10:40:21

ghost_07
Member
From: Krasnogorsk
Registered: 2012-05-16
Posts: 40

Re: Common country name (Россия)

No objections, since official_name will stay with federation part. Also we should not forget about name:ru and alt_name. And anyway, we should also go through all other countries to ensure this change is consistent.

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#13 2017-10-23 10:49:24

wowik
Member
From: Zelenograd
Registered: 2009-09-29
Posts: 8,720

Re: Common country name (Россия)

kocio wrote:

but it's just not a common name

It'is very common name.  Listen radio, watch TV, read newspapers.
Российская Федерация (РФ) - is more usable than simple Russia.

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#14 2017-10-23 11:07:04

kocio
Administrator
From: Warszawa
Registered: 2013-09-04
Posts: 3,330
Website

Re: Common country name (Россия)

Official is useful for official things, but is of course not neglected - media use official names a lot. But when you say or write someone about your country it's rather "Russia", isn't it? The same as with people names - official is your name+surname and it's perfectly valid and useful, but that's not how one usually talk about people. Sometimes common name is the same as official name, but this is not the case.

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#15 2017-10-23 11:14:04

cray33
Member
From: Ижевск, Удмуртия
Registered: 2016-05-14
Posts: 62

Re: Common country name (Россия)

Может голосовалку какую сделать? Я за Россию

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#16 2017-10-23 11:28:29

literan
Member
Registered: 2012-11-06
Posts: 3,150
Website

Re: Common country name (Россия)

wowik wrote:

Российская Федерация (РФ) - is more usable than simple Russia.

that's true only for official TV, papers, sites etc. Russian people almost always call our country "Россия"

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#17 2017-10-23 12:25:20

fserges
Member
From: St.Petersburg/Russia
Registered: 2010-11-08
Posts: 3,854

Re: Common country name (Россия)

It actually has historical roots smile "Россия" was considered as not politically correct word during USSR time and using it was considered as a kind of Russian nationalism. So officials used "РСФСР" instead of Russia (you know there were no such problems with Ukraine, Estonia, Armenia etc). When USSR gone "Россия" become more appropriate but to support political correctness (Tatarstan, Yakutia etc) media changed to "Российская Федерация". It is to support idea: "people who live in Russia not Russians but Citizens of Russia/Россиянин".

For many years it become accepted for all to use equally "Россия/Российская Федерация" but on official maps it is usually "Россиийская Федерация" so people a bit worried when see on map short name.


Бывший редактор ОСМ

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#18 2017-10-23 12:58:26

Sergey Astakhov
Member
From: St.Petersburg, Russia
Registered: 2009-11-13
Posts: 5,632

Re: Common country name (Россия)

fserges wrote:

but on official maps it is usually "Россиийская Федерация" so people a bit worried when see on map short name.

Yandex and Google maps shows "Россия"/"Russia"

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#19 2017-10-23 13:01:26

kocio
Administrator
From: Warszawa
Registered: 2013-09-04
Posts: 3,330
Website

Re: Common country name (Россия)

On osm-carto we use common names for all the objects (and http://openstreetmap.ru also shows this version). However it's perfectly possible to have some other maps with official names, be it just for the countries or anything else too, but it's just a design choice for every map.

Thanks for the historical background. There are some exceptions with country names - like Congo (there are 2 different countries, so official names are used) or USA (probably since common name "America" is also the name of the 2 continents), so it's up to you as a local community to decide which form should be used as a "name".

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#20 2017-10-23 13:01:30

Maturi0n
Member
From: Bavaria/Germany
Registered: 2014-06-09
Posts: 277

Re: Common country name (Россия)

wowik wrote:

Russia consists of many regions and its mapped with long oficcial names. So if we change name for country we should change name to regions too

Is that so? For example Tatarstan is using "Татарстан" in its main name tag, not Республика Татарстан. Same for Chechnya, Kabardino-Balkaria, etc...

Last edited by Maturi0n (2017-10-23 13:01:50)

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#21 2017-10-23 14:17:11

wowik
Member
From: Zelenograd
Registered: 2009-09-29
Posts: 8,720

Re: Common country name (Россия)

literan wrote:

that's true only for official TV

Do you have another TV in Russia? smile

Russian people almost always call our country "Россия"

when they used literature language (not сolloquial) they prefer
Российская Федерация/РФ.   In сolloquial language they can use even Раша wink

Maturi0n wrote:

For example Tatarstan

It depends on region
Tatarstan constitution says:

2. Наименования Республика Татарстан и Татарстан равнозначны.

https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/151234
Yakutian constitution (as many others) set the only variant

"Республика Саха (Якутия)"

Last edited by wowik (2017-11-17 17:37:45)

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#22 2017-10-23 14:44:37

vvoovv
Moderator
Registered: 2008-03-04
Posts: 2,259

Re: Common country name (Россия)

fserges wrote:

It actually has historical roots smile "Россия" was considered as not politically correct word during USSR time and using it was considered as a kind of Russian nationalism.

That's wrong statement.

Не стоит вводить в заблуждение участников обсуждения таким очень спорным утверждением.

Посмотрите вот эту статью в википедии.

В СССР название Россия давали знаковым объектам:
- огромная гостиница прямо напротив Кремля
- кинотеатр на Тверской улице в самом центре Москвы
- шоколадная фабрика в Самаре
- теплоход, который снимался в фильме "Бриллиантовая рука"
- серия речных теплоходов
- фирменный поезд Москва - Владивосток
- многочисленные колхозы с названием Россия

Last edited by vvoovv (2017-10-23 14:45:55)

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#23 2017-10-23 16:29:08

wowik
Member
From: Zelenograd
Registered: 2009-09-29
Posts: 8,720

Re: Common country name (Россия)

В лихие 90-е смотрел телик, а там некий депутат возмущался, что на не то армейских, не то милицейских шевронах написано Россия. Он говорил, что нет такого названия, а есть Российская Федерация.
Я просто офигел от такого депутата, которые не дочитал Конституцию до второго пункта первой статьи.

Но это, как раз, достаточно типичное мнение многих людей.

Last edited by wowik (2017-10-23 18:35:19)

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#24 2017-10-23 16:42:29

literan
Member
Registered: 2012-11-06
Posts: 3,150
Website

Re: Common country name (Россия)

wowik wrote:

Do you have another TV in Russia?

no less than one )

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#25 2017-10-23 17:23:08

NetWormKido
Member
From: Chapaevsk@63RUS
Registered: 2011-11-22
Posts: 940

Re: Common country name (Россия)

Не было печали...

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