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#1 2017-02-17 01:22:59

SomeoneElse
Member
Registered: 2010-10-13
Posts: 581

"AI-Based Country Scale Road Import"

Just as a heads-up, someone mentioned that this page appeared on the wiki recently:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/AI- … oad_Import

That suggests "using deep learning for an area in Thailand" (and we know what happened last time).  I've suggested on the talk page that any import should be discussed here (at least) before it takes place.  Last time the import was (putting it politely) "not exactly announced before it happened" so I'd suggest keeping an eye open for strange new roads added by strange new accounts.

Best Regards,

Andy

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#2 2017-02-17 01:54:26

AlaskaDave
Member
From: Homer, Alaska ; Chiang Mai
Registered: 2013-09-21
Posts: 257
Website

Re: "AI-Based Country Scale Road Import"

Andy, Thanks for pointing this out to us.

I agree that any proposed additions should be carefully reviewed. The Wiki indicates that this will be the route taken before new data is added and I for one, would love to have the benefit of this good looking aerial imagery. However, a quick reading of the allowable uses causes me to wonder if the license will really work for OSM. The writer seems to think so and has put a considerable amount of effort into the proposal.

Considering paragraphs 1.1 and 1.2 under the heading Data seems to confuse the issue. Also, I wonder who is offering this service? Digital Globe, Facebook, or ??

This could be a huge and valuable addition to OSM in Thailand. Let's investigate further and keep the list up to date with any information we uncover.

Dave

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#3 2017-02-18 02:27:43

DrishT
Member
Registered: 2017-01-14
Posts: 27

Re: "AI-Based Country Scale Road Import"

Thanks Andy and Dave for raising this.

This was our next step after posting the description to the wiki. We have been chatting with a few community members over the last few months gathering feedback and local knowledge of Thailand.  We have also shared tiles we edited to gather feedback on quality and tagging, and are happy to do the same for anyone else.

Dave, to answer your question, Facebook is offering this service. We have a team dedicated to OSM ready to answer any questions through this forum, or you can email us directly at osm@fb.com. We will get back to you within 24 hours.

Best,
Drish

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#5 2017-02-18 19:30:27

DrishT
Member
Registered: 2017-01-14
Posts: 27

Re: "AI-Based Country Scale Road Import"

Dear Chai,

Thank-you for bringing this to our attention. The team is investigating this now and will get back to you. We have a team dedicated to OSM ready to answer any questions through this forum, or you can email us directly at osm@fb.com.

Best,
Drish

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#6 2017-02-19 00:03:58

DrishT
Member
Registered: 2017-01-14
Posts: 27

Re: "AI-Based Country Scale Road Import"

Chai, Thanks again for those. We caught the bug and fixed it along with all edits you mentioned. They should be good now. We welcome more feedback so we can continue to improve smile

Thanks!
Drish

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#7 2017-02-24 13:18:16

SomeoneElse
Member
Registered: 2010-10-13
Posts: 581

Re: "AI-Based Country Scale Road Import"

Hi DrishT,

Unfortunately Facebook appears to be playing games with the OSM community again.  Which part of "please discuss before you import" do you not understand?

On the talk page https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tal … oad_Import it was made clear that you'd need to discuss what you were doing before any imports.  The importance of good changeset comments was also pointed out.  You (personally) replied saying "Each mapper will provide more detailed comments as they edit".

The first edit listed above is http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/46144791 .  The changeset comments there are "#nsroadimport #thailand" which are just hashtag gibberish and in no way meaningful.  The account used http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/VLD004 has no information on it - it looks like it has just been created as a throw-away account like a spammer would use.  It's basic politeness when creating accounts to do work for a corporation to explain what the accounts are created for, who the user actually is, and who the corporation is.

To pick up a few points from your post above, "chatting with a few community members over the last few months" is not an appropriate mechanism for informing the community, nor is providing an impersonal email address osm@fb.com a good idea.

Please STOP all Facebook import activity in Thailand and elsewhere until you have discussed fully what you are doing with the community both on the "imports" mailing list and (about edits in Thailand) here.

Best Regards,

Andy Townsend, on behalf of OSM's Data Working Group.

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#8 2017-02-24 13:48:19

SomeoneElse
Member
Registered: 2010-10-13
Posts: 581

Re: "AI-Based Country Scale Road Import"

Hello Thailand Mappers,

Given what's just happened again, It would be really helpful if you can you keep an eye on local "new mappers" http://resultmaps.neis-one.org/newestos … 88/101.568 , and on any edits by "new" accounts that seem surprisingly well-versed in JOSM.  A quick scan suggests that the accounts so far used are https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/RVR002 (I've commented on https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/46201621), https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/VLD004 (https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/46145001) and http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/dehr
(http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/46201620).

If any new accounts appear or you notice suspicious mapping the first thing I'd do is to comment on the changeset discussion - that message is public and it'll alert other mappers both to your message and the changeset.  You can see OSM discussions by country at http://resultmaps.neis-one.org/osm-disc … c=Thailand and clicking on a contributor in that list shows where other people have been talking to them, e.g. http://resultmaps.neis-one.org/osm-disc … id=5314370 .

If any of the edits by any of the above mappers look problematical and you'd like help with reverting them, then you can contact the Data Working Group by email on data@osmfoundation.org .

Edit:
I've found a few more and commented on them - http://resultmaps.neis-one.org/osm-disc … c=Thailand has the details.  Not all of them seem to be exclusively working for Facebook.

Best Regards,

Andy Townsend, OSM DWG

Last edited by SomeoneElse (2017-02-24 14:46:51)

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#9 2017-02-25 02:33:08

DrishT
Member
Registered: 2017-01-14
Posts: 27

Re: "AI-Based Country Scale Road Import"

Hi Andy and OSM DWG,

We share a common goal: to make OSM better with high-quality edits. No edits have been made since last week when this feedback was brought to our attention. As I mentioned in the response, any further edits we make will include changeset comments to state we are adding roads. 

We just replied to Frederick with this invitation as well, but given your expertise and experience in OSM, we'd like to speak to you and your  OSM Data Working Group partners in more detail about our approach and process. We're new to this community and want your direct feedback and suggestions. We'll follow up to schedule a time.

Thanks again!

Respectfully,
Drish

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#10 2017-02-25 12:28:00

SomeoneElse
Member
Registered: 2010-10-13
Posts: 581

Re: "AI-Based Country Scale Road Import"

Hi DrishT,

As you say, OSM is a community.  We'd expect mappers working for Facebook to be open and honest about what they're doing and to engage with the community, and being responsive when other mappers ask them about edits that they have made, just like any other member of the community.  An individual mapper can see commented changesets in their history list, and third-party tools such as http://resultmaps.neis-one.org/osm-disc … id=5314363 also exist to see what questions have been asked about what changesets.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/AI- … oad_Import makes it clear that you are performing an import.  The links from https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import including https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Guidelines describe what needs to be done.  Since you are planning (at least according to the wiki page that you created) to import internationally, the best place for discussion about this import is the global imports list https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/imports .  You'll need to discuss with mappers there what you're planning to do and how you're planning to do it.  Please do review the steps outlined at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Guidelines and follow them, and note that uploading data is the 6th step of  6.

The Data Working Group works on behalf of both the community and the OSMF.  Although we may be able to help with procedural points (as here) the primary communication is with the community both internationally (e.g. the "imports" list) and in national forums such as here.  The DWG may also of course be involved with removing failed imports (as we did with e.g. some of last year's Facebook imports in Egypt) and blocking importers who insist on importing without following the rules (which we've not had to do yet in this case).  Ideally we'd like any imports to be performed according to the guidelines with community approval so that we don't need to get involved at all, so we look forward both to your "proposal to import" on the imports list and to the replies from your mappers to the questions that they have been asked in changeset discussions.

Best Regards,

Andy Townsend, on behalf of OSM's Data Working Group.

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#11 2017-02-25 18:54:36

DrishT
Member
Registered: 2017-01-14
Posts: 27

Re: "AI-Based Country Scale Road Import"

Hi Andy & DWG,

Thanks for the clarification. We appreciate the guidance, especially with the number of lists and guides all over for OSM. We will tackle the questions including yours smile We will also make sure to follow the changes you mentioned and move forward with the e-mail to the import list and country discussion post.

Editors will also add their company affiliation to their profiles first thing Monday smile

Thank-you again!

Best,
Drish

Last edited by DrishT (2017-02-25 19:04:16)

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#12 2017-02-28 05:06:46

AlaskaDave
Member
From: Homer, Alaska ; Chiang Mai
Registered: 2013-09-21
Posts: 257
Website

Re: "AI-Based Country Scale Road Import"

I obtained a license key and TMS Url from the Facebook group, installed it into JOSM and went exploring. I was disappointed to learn that while the members of the FB group have access to high quality satellite imagery from Digital Globe (DG), ordinary OSM users do not. The TMS imagery we are allowed to use is what's been derived after their post-processing of that high quality DG data. See the sample (I obtained the link from their Import page in the Wiki) image below for a look at the layer we get to use:

https://tinyurl.com/jlnqt4t

What this means is that we must use our available satellite imagery, either Bing or Mapbox, and alter its transparency such that their derived layer, placed beneath the Bing or Mapbox layer, is visible through it. In other words, it might be a small help in some areas but mostly you will have to rely on the usual satellite imagery to do your work. There is no way the layer they provide us can help determine if a road is paved or unpaved, 1-lane or multi-lane or even if it is actually a road. Below is a screenshot I made of an area I was investigating as a test of the layer. You can see the thin white strokes don't quite match the Mapbox imagery beneath it. Is that because their imagery is more recent or is it an error in their post-processing? There's no way for us to determine that.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ciy15te9vdn3t … t.JPG?dl=0

I'm very disappointed but not surprised. My quick reading of the terms of the EULA the other day suggested to me that ordinary folks like us were excluded from deriving information from Digital Globe's data. That turned out to be true. I doubt the Facebook TMS layer will be of much help to us and furthermore, without access to the same imagery the FB group is using there won't be any good way, short of a personal field trip, for us to verify or validate their work.

Dave

Last edited by AlaskaDave (2017-03-31 10:33:56)

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#13 2017-02-28 22:12:35

stephankn
Member
Registered: 2010-05-04
Posts: 385

Re: "AI-Based Country Scale Road Import"

I just saw one of their changes.

https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/47512 … 8&layers=C

The quality is absolutely low. And reading the comments and discussions they are not willing to work together with us, the community. They just follow their own - most likely commercial - interests.

Seriously. OSM Thailand is off better without their "help".
Dear Facebook: please go away and play somewhere else.

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#14 2017-03-01 00:12:39

AlaskaDave
Member
From: Homer, Alaska ; Chiang Mai
Registered: 2013-09-21
Posts: 257
Website

Re: "AI-Based Country Scale Road Import"

Agreed. It's merely a "track" in the middle of nowhere and connected to nothing. How they decided to map that way as a track instead of an unclassified and unpaved highway, is unknown. The changeset comment is not very helpful either. It's the same old stuff again "#nsroadimport #thailand". Useless.

How do we stop this train before it crashes and creates another big mess?

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#15 2017-03-01 00:20:34

AlaskaDave
Member
From: Homer, Alaska ; Chiang Mai
Registered: 2013-09-21
Posts: 257
Website

Re: "AI-Based Country Scale Road Import"

One answer is to make the DG data available to skilled OSM members. If we had access to their high-resolution data it could make a huge difference in our ability to add details to the area. But I'm afraid that won't be possible. DigitalGlobe sold those rights to Facebook and they are not likely to give anybody free access. DG isn't interested in making roads more accurate, only in making money to cover their investment. Can you blame them?

Oh well, after all that it's just another day in the 'hood. Copyright is a double-edged sword. It protects the owner and impedes the spread of knowledge at the same time.

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#16 2017-03-01 01:36:58

DrishT
Member
Registered: 2017-01-14
Posts: 27

Re: "AI-Based Country Scale Road Import"

Hello Dave,

As we explained in e-mail, we know it's not ideal, but we cannot share our imagery because of our agreement with DG. This said, we are going to share more about our process and quality checks via the import list.

Stephan,

Thank you for your feedback. We based our tagging on a few things;
1.  The commonly used tags in this area are highway=track. For Example https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?edit … 68/99.4921
2. This area looks like an agricultural area based on our recent high-resolution satellite imagery and Bing satellite imagery.
3. This road will eventually connect to another road that is currently tagged highway=track https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?edit … 99/99.4854
4. We are also using the wiki to guide tagging. In this case  http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dtrack

We stopped editing last week so gaps in roads are due to that using our tasking manager. Once we have been permitted by the DWG to resume, the holes will be filled.

Best,
Drish

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#17 2017-03-01 02:37:11

Johnny Carlsen
Member
From: Chiang Mai, Thailand
Registered: 2011-02-19
Posts: 124

Re: "AI-Based Country Scale Road Import"

All,

Mishari and I had some of the initial communication with Facebook about their import. We have raised our concerns and answered questions to the best of our knowledge. After what happened with their initial set of edits, they really do want to be extra careful not just with the data, but also with the community.

The way I see it, is that we have an extremely technically talented group at Facebook to our disposal, they have access to resources that we do not have (Like High-Res DigitalGlobe imagery). Instead of dismissing them as Stephan is doing, I'd much rather try to find ways to use those resources.

I don't think Stephan is fair in saying "Go away and play somewhere else", especially because he doesn't seem to communicate his real reasons for saying so. If I understand Stephan correct, then even if Facebook get a 100% hit rate on the geometries and tags, he still wouldn't want their data.

If I understand Stephan correctly, then he is afraid of the effect it will have on community growth. If all roads are correctly mapped, it gets less fun and more difficult for new mappers to get started. Just like we are seeing in the US with the Tiger import.

I can understand his concern, but we must also realized that one day the road network will be complete with or without the help from Facebook. Should we then all slow down a bit to avoid ever completing? I am personally adding data as fast as I can, I want OSM to be the best map out there and I think Facebook can help.

Stephan let me know if I have presented your opinions incorrectly.

I do not know what the correct way forward is, but I'd much rather work with Facebook on a solution than just dismissing them.

Last edited by Johnny Carlsen (2017-03-01 02:38:50)

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#18 2017-03-01 03:50:30

Mishari
Member
Registered: 2013-01-14
Posts: 69

Re: "AI-Based Country Scale Road Import"

Hi All,

I want to second Johnny on this. The guys at FB have been quite nice and enthusiastic and I think we should discuss ways of incorporating the work done by FB's team. I'm willing to say that what has transpired has been to a degree my fault as I didn't have time to think through my feedback to them.

It doesn't even have to be direct imports but some ideas I have are:
- done in grids and validated by the community similar to hotosm
- .osm files that can be validated and incorporated gradually.
- generate an enhanced maplayer that can then be traced manually

We should consider this a good sign that OSM is so awesome now that FB wants to be involved. Now we just need to find out how we can work together.

Best regards
Mishari

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#19 2017-03-01 07:52:37

stephankn
Member
Registered: 2010-05-04
Posts: 385

Re: "AI-Based Country Scale Road Import"

DrishT wrote:

We stopped editing last week so gaps in roads are due to that using our tasking manager. Once we have been permitted by the DWG to resume, the holes will be filled.

Again a sign that you didn't understand the fundamental principles of OSM as a community.

It's not just a storage of free (as in beer) geodata.

It is a community gardening the data. This is one reason the data is of so high quality that even companies chose to use it as a data source.

You think there is a tiny group of "leaders" you have to convince then you have "permission" to do your things on OSM. This is not true.
Neither DWG, nor Johnny, Dave or Mishary have the power to grant you permissions of any sort.

OSM is a community. Your edits have to be considered conforming to our community standards.

Part of this process is transparency. You don't silently develop something in your office and suddenly present your result. You have to include us in all your steps.

You plan to use "secret" data sources not available to others. This makes it harder to verify your edits. Handing out API keys to your edit interface is not a solution.

Yes, I might be hard by saying "go away". But I believe this is reasonable as long as you chose no to cooperate in an open and transparent manner with the community. This doesn't say I disagree with having roads mapped or support in completing OSM data. I disagree with the process you have implemented doing so.

Stephan

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#20 2017-03-01 08:04:51

stephankn
Member
Registered: 2010-05-04
Posts: 385

Re: "AI-Based Country Scale Road Import"

Mishari wrote:

We should consider this a good sign that OSM is so awesome now that FB wants to be involved. Now we just need to find out how we can work together.

I have the feeling you understood the problem. It's not about having data in or not. It's about how it is done. It is a meta layer to the actual editing.
It is about finding a way on how to best integrate this with the community. To strengthen the community and grow it.

Referring to a previous comment by Johnny. Yes, even a 100% correct import would be something I see skeptical.

OSM had not yet enough time to grow to master the challenges of gardening the data on that completion level.

With the inflow of occasional mapper using maps.me we already see shortcoming in how the community can integrate this. We have to work on these challenges.

AI has the potential to be useful here. It could be a companion to newbies supporting them in getting started and avoiding common mistakes.

So yes: I see a potential here in multiple areas on how Facebook could support us here. But let me stress it again: It's not about working in secrecy, it's about openness and acceptance of community feedback. Just pretending to listen to the community and then continuing as before is not.

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#21 2017-03-01 08:13:42

stephankn
Member
Registered: 2010-05-04
Posts: 385

Re: "AI-Based Country Scale Road Import"

Another example that Facebook prefers to work in secret:
They gave a talk with a lot of buzzwords at SOTM us. But declined to have a video recording being made available so that the community can follow their ideas.

http://stateofthemap.us/2016/how-can-ai … make-maps/

@Facebook: Stop hiding. Open up your communication with the community and share the talk.

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#22 2017-03-01 19:20:35

rorym
Member
Registered: 2008-04-23
Posts: 23

Re: "AI-Based Country Scale Road Import"

DrishT wrote:

We stopped editing last week so gaps in roads are due to that using our tasking manager. Once we have been permitted by the DWG to resume, the holes will be filled.

As others have stated, the Data Working Group doesn't give you permission. The community will give you feedback on it. And you haven't even taken the first step by emailing the imports mailing list!

Johnny Carlsen wrote:

one day the road network will be complete with or without the help from Facebook. Should we then all slow down a bit to avoid ever completing?

No, of course not! But in that case there is still more things to map. Buildings (heights, names, postcodes), amenities, landuses, better and more accurate road geometries, road attributes (speed limits, surfaces, lanes, sidewalks, signage, stop signs, traffic lights, road widths, streetlights etc). OSM will never be finished!

It sounds like this Facebook team don't want to contribute to OpenStreetMap. They appear to want a generic geo database web host. This project is open, we work in the open, we share things in the open, we all work together. If we all don't have access to the digital globe imagery, then maybe it shouldn't be used. If you don't want to discuss your import in the open, and want just find the right high level executives to approve your import, then maybe you don't really want to contribute to OpenStreetMap.

We shouldn't throw out the open just because someone says they have nice imagery.

Please work in the open. Please share with us. Please share your imagery. Let's all work on this project. Stop trying to hide yourself away, and refuse to share your toys. Things are much better if we work together.

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#23 2017-03-03 14:18:03

PlaneMad
Member
Registered: 2008-09-16
Posts: 20

Re: "AI-Based Country Scale Road Import"

Yes, even a 100% correct import would be something I see skeptical.

As someone who has been active in India for the last 10 years, I can safely say that OSM is struggling here because very few see any point drawing millions of kms of roads across this vast country, most of which are already there on other maps. The majority of contributions of roads in India have come from European mappers, and maybe we should treat that as good as an import as well.

That said, having these roads on the map has acted as a seed for some basic data that makes the map be of use and allow the collection of more valuable data that can only come from local knowledge like streetnames and POIs. In India, we are already seeing that by the way of maps.me contributions from the mobile which is the primary way to access the internet, and would not be possible if there were no roads to begin with. 

OSM will be a truly open and global project only when it can build sustainable communities on the ground maintaining the map as stephankn said. If we have access to high quality of open road geometries from FB, it seems like a huge opportunity to improve the quality of the map and boost the utility of OSM, which in turn brings in more editors. Its unreasonable to expect OSM communities in developing nations to form like they have in Europe over beers when basic needs like continuous electricity or safe drinking water is not met. Maybe different regions need different approaches, and this seems like a worthwhile effort if endorsed by the local mappers.

It's not about working in secrecy, it's about openness and acceptance of community feedback. Just pretending to listen to the community and then continuing as before is not.

Yes!

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#24 2017-03-03 15:04:22

AlaskaDave
Member
From: Homer, Alaska ; Chiang Mai
Registered: 2013-09-21
Posts: 257
Website

Re: "AI-Based Country Scale Road Import"

Interesting commentary and feedback. I'm always angered when I run into copyright issues because they retard the growth of knowledge. Okay, that's just the way the world works and I must accept that. I also see the vast amount of mapping that still needs to be done in my primary areas of interest, Thailand and Alaska. I am appreciative of any level of assistance with getting data into OSM because that is truly going to be the proof that the open source model works. When OSM can give Google real competition for offering the best map of the world, we'll have proved that point. FB could be a valuable ally in helping us reach that goal. Like it or not, we depend on some pretty big outfits to be able to do what we do. Where would we be without Bing?

I have a question about licensing and EULAs. How it is that the FB group can extract information from the DG visual data if that information will be used in OSM, where there are virtually no limits to the further, subsequent uses of that data?  Do FB and DG realize that once "their" derived data is in OSM, they have no control of it anymore? That someone may decide to create a map of wheelchair accessible bathrooms in Chiang Mai and turn around and sell that map to anybody with a few baht to spend?

I think we should take a step back, allow the group some latitude (pun intended), let them make a few mistakes, have them participate in this discussion, exchange ideas and advice, and see where it takes us. Only by discussing this important work here will we understand enough about it to feel good about giving the go ahead.

Last edited by AlaskaDave (2017-03-03 15:07:33)

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#25 2017-03-03 23:44:37

@kevin_bullock
Member
Registered: 2017-03-02
Posts: 3

Re: "AI-Based Country Scale Road Import"

Hi all, I wanted to chime in both with a personal perspective, and one that represents the company I work for, DigitalGlobe.

On behalf of DigitalGlobe, I can confirm that Drishtie’s (Drish’s) statements are accurate and reflect the current agreement between Facebook and DigitalGlobe. Speaking for DigitalGlobe alone, we continue to work with both Microsoft and Mapbox to update satellite imagery available within their respective layers available in the OSM editors. In addition, we are looking at options to publish imagery for OSM editing similar to the imagery that is being used by Facebook.

WRT the copyright comment, I spoke about this at last year's State of the Map US. In short, DigitalGlobe is a data licensing company. Our goal is to continue to develop, launch and operate really nice satellites so the world continues to benefit from detailed and accurate scientific observations from space. This includes the OpenStreetMap community who have been using DigitalGlobe data by way of Bing and Mapbox for many years. We just want to continue to do that for many more years. You can see my presentation here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dh60he … xdUiRbIMeg

Last, as an OSM contributor for 5 years, being involved with several State of the Maps both presenting and organizing, I welcome and encourage the work that Facebook is doing to support and improve OSM. We, as a community, must work together; and Facebook has clearly stated it’s willingness to work with us. Let’s continue to be respectful, and acknowledge the commitment Facebook has with OpenStreetMap.

Thanks, Kevin Bullock

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