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#76 2016-03-03 21:41:16

JayCBR
Member
Registered: 2015-03-11
Posts: 222

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

i think highway=unclassified and surface=unpaved is the way to go and maybe use highway=track when the road is too bad for street cars, while retaining the name and ref

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#77 2016-03-04 14:10:54

Amaroussi
Member
From: ATH-LON(!)
Registered: 2013-06-07
Posts: 120

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

I would make all provincial roads secondary by default, unless totally impassable; in which case, I think we could use a lower classification, and also "note:highway", "surface" and "smoothness" to explain to future editors, why it could not be secondary.

Last edited by Amaroussi (2016-03-04 14:11:34)

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#78 2016-03-05 02:38:09

nikospag
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From: Piraeus, Greece
Registered: 2012-03-08
Posts: 196
Website

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

I agree with both of you. I think that highway=unclassified (for dirt roads) is the way to go, with other subsidiary tags like surface or smoothness.
If the road is too bad for street cars, i think that must be tagged as track. (as JayCBR said).

Last edited by nikospag (2016-03-05 02:46:37)

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#79 2016-03-12 06:25:32

nikospag
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From: Piraeus, Greece
Registered: 2012-03-08
Posts: 196
Website

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

There is a new document about Provincial roads ESYE/2011

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#80 2016-03-12 11:20:55

Amaroussi
Member
From: ATH-LON(!)
Registered: 2013-06-07
Posts: 120

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

Hi, looking at that WMS layer, I am starting to think that nearly all of Primary National Road Network are slated to become motorways, which would leave the trunk level virtually unused.

We could shift Secondary National roads to trunk and Tertiary National roads to secondary, thereby restoring the distinction between Tertiary National roads and all Provincial Roads.

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#81 2016-03-12 22:04:48

nikospag
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From: Piraeus, Greece
Registered: 2012-03-08
Posts: 196
Website

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

Thats true, but.
In this table (Mimistry of Interior) you can see an official list of motorways and trunk(ταχείας κυκλοφορίας) roads. When these trunk roads become motorways there will be no trunk roads in Greece (officially).

Last edited by nikospag (2016-03-13 02:21:39)

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#82 2016-03-13 10:47:40

JayCBR
Member
Registered: 2015-03-11
Posts: 222

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

i think using trunk for secondary national network is too much..in most countries, highway=trunk is used for expressways (οδοί ταχείας κυκλοφορίας), well here this is rather difficult to define (official sources are often contradicting and confusing), thats why i proposed for these roads to be trunk:motorway-like roads (these look more like expressways), roads planned to become motorways by ΦΕΚ 253ΑΑΠ/2015 and maybe large urban avenues (3+ lanes)

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#83 2016-03-13 12:24:27

Amaroussi
Member
From: ATH-LON(!)
Registered: 2013-06-07
Posts: 120

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

JayCBR wrote:

i think using trunk for secondary national network is too much..in most countries, highway=trunk is used for expressways (οδοί ταχείας κυκλοφορίας), well here this is rather difficult to define (official sources are often contradicting and confusing), thats why i proposed for these roads to be trunk:motorway-like roads (these look more like expressways), roads planned to become motorways by ΦΕΚ 253ΑΑΠ/2015 and maybe large urban avenues (3+ lanes)

Hi,

I am sorry that I had to test your idea thoroughly, but what about:

- Primary National Roads (e.g. EO1 from Chalastra to Polykastro);
- Roads expecting to become motorways (e.g. EO8a);
- Motorway-like roads (e.g. the former A65).

I think that a blanket rule of allowing only large urban avenues (3+ lanes) to be trunk may open way to the "orphaned" roads problem that I dreaded. The important concern I have is the problem of having sections of road of a given class (except Motorways, obviously) being unconnected to roads of the same class or better, as well as the problem with annoying short gaps of lower-class road between the roads of a given class.

Additionally, not all urban avenues always have 3+ continuous lanes each side.

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#84 2016-03-13 13:22:41

JayCBR
Member
Registered: 2015-03-11
Posts: 222

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

- Primary National Roads (e.g. EO1 from Chalastra to Polykastro);
- Roads expecting to become motorways (e.g. EO8a);
- Motorway-like roads (e.g. the former A65).

this is exactly what i am talking about (edit: A65 and A52 are motorways, they just forgot to mention them)

I think that a blanket rule of allowing only large urban avenues (3+ lanes) to be trunk may open way to the "orphaned" roads problem that I dreaded. The important concern I have is the problem of having sections of road of a given class (except Motorways, obviously) being unconnected to roads of the same class or better, as well as the problem with annoying short gaps of lower-class road between the roads of a given class. Additionally, not all urban avenues always have 3+ continuous lanes each side.

i suppose you talk about urban roads;well we can decide which urban avenues to be trunk, so it can apply to all the length of it (Μεσογείων, Κηφισίας, Συγγρού, Ποσειδώνος, Κύμης, Βουλιαγμένης);this way no gaps exist, you know you are on a major avenue and looks more like a network

Last edited by JayCBR (2016-03-13 13:46:49)

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#85 2016-03-17 02:58:52

nikospag
Member
From: Piraeus, Greece
Registered: 2012-03-08
Posts: 196
Website

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

Please leave urban roads out of this topic. We will discuss about urban roads later in an other topic.

But Amaroussi is right about blanket rules. A blanket rule about motorway-like roads can not be applied, because eg. Karditsa – Trikala road is a motorway-like road but we can’t tag it as a trunk road because it will become an orphaned (island) road .

Just think that road networks are like pipe networks, and you will figure it out. Same principals apply. Sorry that i sound like an engineer but that’s my way of thinking because i am an engineer smile

Last edited by nikospag (2016-03-17 03:14:38)

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#86 2016-04-05 20:59:06

Amaroussi
Member
From: ATH-LON(!)
Registered: 2013-06-07
Posts: 120

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

I happen to be a graphic designer too.

At present, the classification page (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Wiki … ad_Network) states that tertiary roads are for "narrow or incomplete provincial roads".

However but I think we aim to get as many provincial roads as possible to be secondary. I propose that the definition be modified to:

"impassable or restricted provincial roads".

Examples of the restricted roads:
- According to OKXE, Attica Provincial Road 14 passes through a military base between Perama and Skaramagas, which is not open to the public.
- Hydra does not allow cars.

I am concerned that "narrow" may be interpreted by some as one lane only, which is very common in rural Greece. Therefore the term doesn't look "watertight" in my opinion.

An alternative option would be to get rid of the existing phrase and replace "primary and secondary provincial network" with "all provincial roads, unless restricted to the public or unfit for motor vehicles". This is because we may use a much lower classification for such roads.

Last edited by Amaroussi (2016-04-05 21:02:04)

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#87 2016-04-07 05:31:13

nikospag
Member
From: Piraeus, Greece
Registered: 2012-03-08
Posts: 196
Website

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

I disagree about what provincial roads should be tertiary. I have already publicated a table about this here, the table under the map where it says "Classification complex examples".

Are you saying that provincial roads should be tertiary only if they are impassable or restricted roads? That is absurd.

As for the phrase "narrow or incomplete provincial roads" at the road network classification page, i agree that it should be removed or replaced.

Last edited by nikospag (2016-04-07 05:55:14)

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#88 2016-04-07 11:00:07

JayCBR
Member
Registered: 2015-03-11
Posts: 222

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

so my case is this:
-someone who drives on a secondary road should expect to lead somewhere (town, national highway, provincial road) and to be safe to drive (paved, reasonable width)...imagine you drive on a provincial road (highway=secondary) and suddenly the surface changes to dirt in the middle of nowhere, how would that feel?
-if all provincial roads are secondary, it would mess navigation as well (when you go somewhere, would you like the best route or any provincial road it finds around?)

so for us to have a proper network, i think is better for SOME provincial roads to be tertiary

if you think my definition in the wiki table is wrong you are free to change it

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#89 2016-04-21 11:25:31

Amaroussi
Member
From: ATH-LON(!)
Registered: 2013-06-07
Posts: 120

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

JayCBR wrote:

so my case is this:
-someone who drives on a secondary road should expect to lead somewhere (town, national highway, provincial road) and to be safe to drive (paved, reasonable width)...imagine you drive on a provincial road (highway=secondary) and suddenly the surface changes to dirt in the middle of nowhere, how would that feel?
-if all provincial roads are secondary, it would mess navigation as well (when you go somewhere, would you like the best route or any provincial road it finds around?)

so for us to have a proper network, i think is better for SOME provincial roads to be tertiary

if you think my definition in the wiki table is wrong you are free to change it

Hi,

I should clarify my position here before we go in circles: I am getting concerned that you are focusing too literally on the layout and condition, but the fact is that all provincial roads should be secondary for sake of simplicity. If you are worried about the layout and condition then we should use the lanes, smoothness and surface tags.

However, there are special exceptions that I do not have control over, such as cars being banned in Hydra Island, and that section of Attica Provincial Road 14 through a military base between Perama and Skaramagas: if cars are banned for these exceptional cases, then there we have a exceptional reason not to tag them as secondary.

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#90 2017-05-01 21:09:19

JayCBR
Member
Registered: 2015-03-11
Posts: 222

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

i think we should re-consider the use of highway=trunk, now that most of the primary national network has been upgraded into motorways.

the term trunk road in Greece is rather vague and no legally binding, this poses a problem...or an opportunity to better represent greek roads..

last time we decided trunk roads to be those belonging in the primary national network (that is becoming largely obsolete because of the motorways), i think we should include more

important roads like Thermopyles - Antirrio, Larisa - Trikala should become trunk, serving as link roads to motorways
multi-lane major avenues like Syggrou/Kifisias etc
roads that are being upgraded into motorways like Northern Cretan Corridor (BOAK)

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#91 2017-05-10 02:55:37

ika-chan!
Member
Registered: 2016-10-23
Posts: 96

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

Hi,

As Amaroussi, I suggested that trunk should go to major National Roads. Right now, I am thinking that it should include sections of the Secondary National Network that are part of E-Roads (otherwise, they and perhaps the Tertiary National Network could be primary).

I need more time to think of a new highway classification table.

UPDATE: Here it is: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Use … 17_changes

Last edited by ika-chan! (2017-05-11 16:09:12)


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#92 2017-05-12 18:55:25

JayCBR
Member
Registered: 2015-03-11
Posts: 222

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

well i tried my idea and the trunk roads included are:
EO51 E 85 Ardanio - Ormenio
EO1β Chalastra - Thessaloniki
EO2 E 79 A2/A24 junction - Thessaloniki (widened section of Langada street)
EO2 E 86 Florina - Thessaloniki
EO3 E 65 Larisa - Kozani & Ptolemaida - Florina
EO5 (sections where A5 is not completed)
EO6 E 92 Larisa - Trikala
EO6 E 92 Trikala - Panagia (will be demoted to primary after A3 is complete)
EO8 Athina - Eleysina
EO9 E 55 Patra - Pyrgos
EO20 Ioannina - Kalpaki
EO22 Kalpaki - Kakavia
EO27/EO48 Thermopyles - Itea - Antirrio
EO90 (sections not upgraded to motorway)
EO91 Leoforos Syggrou/Poseidonos
EO83 Kifisias/Thiseos etc
EO111 Thessaloniki internal ring road (not officially defined as motorway)
possible candidates:
Larisa - Karditsa
Lamia - Karditsa - Trikala (until A3 is complete)
Vari - Koropi
Igoumenitsa - Preveza - A52

also other major urban highways like Vouliagmenis, Mesogeion, Vasilisis Sofias/Amalias etc

so i think we are very close

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#93 2017-05-13 09:17:55

JayCBR
Member
Registered: 2015-03-11
Posts: 222

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

trunk roads generally are defined as important/strategic roads, inferior to motorways

in our case most of them are included in e-roads routes, but i have some objections:
E 55 - section Pyrgos - Kyparissia could be trunk, Kyparissia - Gargalianoi - Pylos - Kalamata NOT
E 65 - section Lamia - Mpralos, Kastelli - Kissamos NOT, there is also a section that runs through Kalamata that cant be trunk
E 86 - section Krystallopigi - Florina has very low traffic, most people choose A29, its a MAYBE
E 92 - section Larisa - Volos also has the same issue, because of A1
E 951 - this route should only include section Amfilochia - Ioannina of A5 (when is complete)
E 952 - the whole route is not that important to be trunk
E 961 - section Sparti - Gytheio the same

there is also no need to move other classes around, the rest stays as it is:
motorway - motorway
trunk - important national highways/major urban avenues
primary - rest of secondary national network/important urban roads
secondary - tertiary national network/provincial roads/secondary urban roads
tertiary - roads connecting superior roads, villages/residential streets with priority

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#94 2017-05-13 11:55:12

ika-chan!
Member
Registered: 2016-10-23
Posts: 96

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

Give me some time to think this through. I have not yet given the final go-ahead, but did you ask nikospag, greecemapper and aitolos before going ahead at such a wide-impacting scale?

Last edited by ika-chan! (2017-05-13 14:06:35)


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#95 2017-10-01 16:05:54

ika-chan!
Member
Registered: 2016-10-23
Posts: 96

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

Hi,

I have good reason to believe that the 1998 road list is not an authoritative list of National Roads.

The registry states clearly that the numbers other than those on the 1963 Decree were added solely for publishing road accident reports, and not for general use.

Therefore, roads like the EO9γ do not actually exist, and the now-offline OKXE database proved it.

Source: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost. … count=2803

Last edited by ika-chan! (2017-10-01 16:06:44)


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#96 2017-10-02 23:02:39

JayCBR
Member
Registered: 2015-03-11
Posts: 222

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

well this document was the closest we had to a law, the only update since 1963..the truth is, it solved a lot of numbering problems..also dont forget EO8a was an actual highway..we can omit these numbers, retaining their status as national highways (branches)..some exceptions could be EO1a,EO8a,EO9a,EO16a

this sentence makes no sense to me:

Therefore, roads like the EO9γ do not actually exist, and the now-offline OKXE database proved it.

what is the deal with okxe anyway? are we getting that back or is it gone for good?

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#97 2017-10-03 09:53:04

ika-chan!
Member
Registered: 2016-10-23
Posts: 96

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

With all due respect, I don't work for ΥΠΕΚΑ-MEE (who replaced ΟΚΧΕ-HEMCO in 2013), so how would I know about the fate of the layers?

I have been talking with the guys at SkyscraperCity for some time and it is clear that it does not matter how close the 1998 registry is, I have been told that the numbers on the Registry do not stand officially. From page 9:

Part One: It contains the Registry of the national roads nationwide.

The first column contains the number of the road. This number is based on the Road Numbering Ministerial Decree Γ25871/9/23.7.1963. For the needs, however, and only, of filling the Road Accidents Form, this numbering has been filled by the Statistical Authority in the following cases:

a. For national roads that did not exist in the Ministerial Decree, as they were constructed at a later stage or they are planned for construction or are currently under construction (ie. Egnatia Odos, Attiki Odos).
b. Spurs, bypasses, and extensions or sections of roads that pass through a prefecture capital and point towards opposite directions, without having, however, a continuous km count that covers the whole national road.

As it stands, the 1998 registry is not official, and thus is no longer appropriate for both OpenStreetMap and Wikipedia.

Source: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost. … count=2805

Last edited by ika-chan! (2017-10-03 09:57:52)


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#98 2018-01-09 08:03:27

nikospag
Member
From: Piraeus, Greece
Registered: 2012-03-08
Posts: 196
Website

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

According to Greek Code of Law, all documents signed by the Greek Government are official. Therefore all documents published by Hellenic Statistical Authority are fully legal and official, even if they mention that are for filling Road Accidents Forms.
These documents have been created to reference the new roads that had not been constructed (or did not exist) in the Ministerial Decree of 1963, and that makes sense to me (and others). I don't know who that idiot is (ea1969) that posted in skyscrapercity (i am calling him idiot because he is calling us idiots) but he is talking nonsense. <-- Edit: He is not calling us idiots, i misunderstood the meaning of his last sentence. Sorry for that. 

Guys, official documents are our compass, if you start to question them then you will lose your (our) path, and all boundaries will be lost.

As for trunk roads:
In my point of view THERE ARE NO OFFICIALLY TRUNK ROADS IN GREECE as i have said many times before. BUT in OSM i think they can exist only if they connect Motorways, otherwise they will become orphaned (island) roads.

Edit: But we already have voted that Primary National Network should be trunk, and that is enough for me.

Edit:

JayCBR wrote:

i think we should re-consider the use of highway=trunk, now that most of the primary national network has been upgraded into motorways.

the term trunk road in Greece is rather vague and no legally binding, this poses a problem...or an opportunity to better represent greek roads..

last time we decided trunk roads to be those belonging in the primary national network (that is becoming largely obsolete because of the motorways), i think we should include more

important roads like Thermopyles - Antirrio, Larisa - Trikala should become trunk, serving as link roads to motorways
multi-lane major avenues like Syggrou/Kifisias etc
roads that are being upgraded into motorways like Northern Cretan Corridor (BOAK)

I think JayCBR has a point here. But there is not an official definition of "important roads" or "major roads" (national roads) in legal documents. Who decides what roads are important?

That is my humble opinion.

Last edited by nikospag (2018-01-15 05:04:40)

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#99 2018-01-10 20:42:36

The Duke of Waltham
Member
Registered: 2016-09-07
Posts: 12

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

I despair of making sense of this tangled mess; even the motorway authorities seem to become confused sometimes. I was returning from Veria the other day, and came across this sign, for the exit from A2 towards Alexandria. I knew well this was National Road 1, so I was more than surprised to find the sign marked "13" – as is the next sign, on the gantry 500 metres ahead, according to the link.

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#100 2018-01-12 05:03:36

nikospag
Member
From: Piraeus, Greece
Registered: 2012-03-08
Posts: 196
Website

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

Ha ha ha ! that was funny. I am wondering where the hell did they find the number 13 !!!!.
Nevertheless i will try to inform them about their mistake, thanks for sharing this.

Edit: Egnatia Odos has been notified. (including your Google photo).

Last edited by nikospag (2018-01-12 06:17:20)

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