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#51 2016-02-19 03:38:20

nikospag
Member
From: Piraeus, Greece
Registered: 2012-03-08
Posts: 196
Website

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

JayCBR wrote:

as i noticed the tertiary national network comprises mostly by old or minor national highways that are rather insignificant..so i think they could be in the same category as primary provincial

Actually this is right (my research agrees with it). So, tertiary national roads must be tagged as secondary.
Don't worry about stacking three networks into secondary tag. This tag can afford it, because it can show the least important roads but at the same time it can show that they are still important.

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#52 2016-02-19 03:49:39

nikospag
Member
From: Piraeus, Greece
Registered: 2012-03-08
Posts: 196
Website

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

So, my vote is

1=a+f       trunk=        (primary national network + roads planned to become motorways)
2=b          primary=     (secondary national network)
3=c+d+e   secondary= (tertiary national network +whole provincial network)
4=o          tertiary=     (minor roads)

EDIT: Descriptions added

Last edited by nikospag (2016-02-19 04:28:00)

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#53 2016-02-19 05:37:12

nikospag
Member
From: Piraeus, Greece
Registered: 2012-03-08
Posts: 196
Website

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

Trunk (1)=
a) primary national network
f) roads planned to become motorways defined in ΦΕΚ 253ΑΑΠ/2015
g) motorway-like roads

Primary(2)=
b) secondary national network
c) tertiary national network
d) primary provincial network

Secondary(3)=
c) tertiary national network
d) primary provincial network
e) secondary provincial network

Tertiary(4)=
d) primary provincial network
e) secondary provincial network
o) none of the above (just minor roads)

Voting must be like this (for example):
1=a+f or 1=a etc
2=b+c
3=d+e
4=o

each letter (a,b,c,d,e) is a unique network, other letters are complementary
note that the letter(s) of your choice can't be in more than one categories


So far we have: (red numbers in parentheses are number of votes)

1=a (4) +f (4) +g (1)
2=b (5) +d (1)
3=c (4) +d (3) +e (3)
4=o (3) +e (1)

Last voter: mtraveller

Don't be confused by this table, it's just for reference reasons. We will wait for other members to vote too.

Last edited by nikospag (2016-02-25 20:48:10)

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#54 2016-02-19 08:16:01

mtraveller
Member
Registered: 2015-09-28
Posts: 9

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

Here is my vote:

1=a+f        trunk = primary national + roads to become motorways
2=b            primary = secondary national
3=c+d+e        secondary = tertiary national + primary provincial + secondary provincial
4=o            tertiary = minor roads

—-

Notes: Regarding C (tertiary national) I trust JayCBR’s and nikospag’s confirmation of their actual definition as “replaced” by ΠΔ401/1993. Also, with d+e I am referring to the whole provincial network, including the provincial roads on the islands which are neither, as there was "no need" for this distinction according to ΦΕΚ 423Β/1995. Thank you all for your brilliant work and research!

Last edited by mtraveller (2016-02-19 08:22:42)

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#55 2016-02-19 11:19:54

nikospag
Member
From: Piraeus, Greece
Registered: 2012-03-08
Posts: 196
Website

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

deleted

Last edited by nikospag (2016-02-26 00:02:50)

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#56 2016-02-19 11:24:58

JayCBR
Member
Registered: 2015-03-11
Posts: 215

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

so we wait until end of the month for more replies

i am also thinking we need a poll for road names (outside of cities)

about street names inside cities i believe we are on the same page:
name=Δημοκρατίας (omit οδός or λεωφόρος)
int_name=Dimokratias (omit οδός or λεωφόρος)

i don't think name:en=Democracy avenue etc is right

EDIT1:please remove text concerning removed polls, to avoid confusion for potential readers

Last edited by JayCBR (2016-02-19 11:25:29)

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#57 2016-02-19 12:14:13

nikospag
Member
From: Piraeus, Greece
Registered: 2012-03-08
Posts: 196
Website

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

Yes, we are on the same page about all of these. And i think that most of us are too. If i'm wrong please correct me.

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#58 2016-02-19 18:52:56

Amaroussi
Member
From: ATH-LON(!)
Registered: 2013-06-07
Posts: 120

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

There are too many things in this thread. I think the street names should go in a separate thread.

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#59 2016-02-25 02:40:21

nikospag
Member
From: Piraeus, Greece
Registered: 2012-03-08
Posts: 196
Website

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

Voting summary (so far)

Most of us believe that:

roads planned to become motorways(defined in ΦΕΚ 253ΑΑΠ/2015) should be Trunk (4 of 4 votes)
Primary national network should be Trunk (4 of 4 votes)
Secondary national network should be Primary (4 of 4 votes)
Tertiary national network should be Secondary (4 of 4 votes)
Primary provincial network should be Secondary (3 of 4 votes)
Secondary provincial network should be Secondary (3 of 4 votes)
(see post #53 for details)


If anyone wants to change his vote, he is free to do it (with a new post).
If anyone objects to this voting (poll), he can make a statement.
Voting is still open

Last edited by nikospag (2016-02-25 21:45:57)

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#60 2016-02-25 12:29:20

hariskar
Member
From: Geece/Kavala
Registered: 2015-01-01
Posts: 133

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

Deleted post

Last edited by hariskar (2016-02-25 20:22:45)

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#61 2016-02-26 11:03:25

Amaroussi
Member
From: ATH-LON(!)
Registered: 2013-06-07
Posts: 120

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

nikospag wrote:
Voting summary (so far)

Most of us believe that:

roads planned to become motorways(defined in ΦΕΚ 253ΑΑΠ/2015) should be Trunk (4 of 4 votes)
Primary national network should be Trunk (4 of 4 votes)
Secondary national network should be Primary (4 of 4 votes)
Tertiary national network should be Secondary (4 of 4 votes)
Primary provincial network should be Secondary (3 of 4 votes)
Secondary provincial network should be Secondary (3 of 4 votes)
(see post #53 for details)


If anyone wants to change his vote, he is free to do it (with a new post).
If anyone objects to this voting (poll), he can make a statement.
Voting is still open

I would also be open to an idea that Long stretches of the Tertiary national network (more than 10 kilometres) could be Primary. That still leaves the problem of how national and provincial roads run through small cities with bypasses, like Tripoli and Argos.

Last edited by Amaroussi (2016-02-26 11:04:46)

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#62 2016-02-27 05:07:31

nikospag
Member
From: Piraeus, Greece
Registered: 2012-03-08
Posts: 196
Website

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

I forgot to clarify something. The rules we are discussing here do not apply inside city plan areas. I think that roads hierarchy inside these areas is a different matter.

EDIT: What I’m trying to say is that it seems networks do not exist inside cities, towns, villages or hamlets, but only between them.

Eg major highways in Athens are not part of any network (except Athinon, Kymis, and Piraeus Port – EO8 route).  Notice that there is a distinction too for EO51 inside cities.  See ΦΕΚ 30B/1996.

Also, there is a distinction for hamlets too. See ΦΕΚ 800B/1995

Even if documents are not referring to every road, it seems that there is some rationale behind those distinctions.

Last edited by nikospag (2016-02-28 15:05:07)

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#63 2016-02-28 07:48:16

Amaroussi
Member
From: ATH-LON(!)
Registered: 2013-06-07
Posts: 120

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

If we were to address urban roads in a separate manner, then I am concerned about the risk of "orphaned" roads (except motorways): roads of a given classification (e.g. trunk) that do not connect to other roads of the same or better type. For example, I just demoted an avenue in Nafplio from trunk to primary, as it did not connect to any other trunk road.

Last edited by Amaroussi (2016-02-28 07:52:51)

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#64 2016-02-28 13:34:25

nikospag
Member
From: Piraeus, Greece
Registered: 2012-03-08
Posts: 196
Website

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

We can avoid that risk.  For example we could apply a simple rule.  The highest road class that a city, town etc can have, can’t be higher than the highest class of the roads arriving to that city.
So, eg Nafplio can't have a road higher than primary. (for now)

PS I edited post #62

Last edited by nikospag (2016-03-01 00:04:05)

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#65 2016-02-29 08:31:21

Amaroussi
Member
From: ATH-LON(!)
Registered: 2013-06-07
Posts: 120

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

Sorry that I am in the hurry, but the WMS does not seem to be accurate for many reasons, such as A6 being shown as a national road, not a motorway, and the bypasses at Argos and Tripoli are not taken into account (especially since one of the main roads in Tripoli are pedestrianised now).

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#66 2016-02-29 23:00:08

nikospag
Member
From: Piraeus, Greece
Registered: 2012-03-08
Posts: 196
Website

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

Actually is accurate enough.

ΦΕΚ 261/1993 says: “Η Ελεύθερη Λεωφόρος Ελευσίνας – Σταυρού – Α/Δ Σπάτων εντάσσεται στο Δευτερεύων Εθνικό Οδικό Δίκτυο  και χαρακτηρίζεται Αυτοκινητόδρομος” (implies A6 )
That’s why is red. (even if it’s a motorway)
That is also confirmed by ΦEK 30B/1996.
Of course, we must tag that road as motorway. (as it is).

Bypasses are not part of any network according to ΦΕΚ documents (except some bypasses of primary national network, ΦEK 30B/1996.).  That’s why they are not taken into account. (see also post #62)

Last edited by nikospag (2016-02-29 23:59:22)

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#67 2016-03-01 00:04:29

Amaroussi
Member
From: ATH-LON(!)
Registered: 2013-06-07
Posts: 120

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

Hi, I may have misinterpreted it by accident, given that you previously gave me the wrong legend via PM, and I posted my reply before you corrected the legend.

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#68 2016-03-01 02:38:28

nikospag
Member
From: Piraeus, Greece
Registered: 2012-03-08
Posts: 196
Website

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

(Sorry, legend assignment was my fault)

I think that bypasses must be tagged according to the roads that they connect, and without ref tags. Because:
Incoming and outgoing roads from/to a town are different ways (even if have the same ref) as they have different destinations.   

So, bypasses are just connecting different roads.

If a bypass connects roads of different classes of raods, i think that must be tagged according to its quality.
For example, bypasses of Argos and Tripoli must be tagged as primary.

Last edited by nikospag (2016-03-01 03:45:17)

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#69 2016-03-01 13:38:15

JayCBR
Member
Registered: 2015-03-11
Posts: 215

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

please take a look at Trikala at about 1:500m zoom, i think this is the proper way to do city roads;EO30 originally passed through city center, now you can use the ring road instead, this route can be primary with ref=EO30 and the old one to be secondary with old_ref, the same goes with EO6 bypassing Trikala, so there is no need for primaries in city center

Last edited by JayCBR (2016-03-01 13:39:36)

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#70 2016-03-01 14:25:36

Amaroussi
Member
From: ATH-LON(!)
Registered: 2013-06-07
Posts: 120

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

@JayCBR, as the map of Trikala stands at 1517 EEST, it looks fine since I have always favoured making use of the bypasses.

However, I would be open to shifting Secondary National roads to trunk and Tertiary National roads to secondary since 90% of all Primary National Roads are motorways, thereby restoring the distinction between Tertiary National roads and all Provincial Roads. it seems to me that Primary National roads are another name for Motorways.

Also, I would favour restoring single relations for each numbered National Road, because the start and end destinations can vary depending on how big you see the country (e.g. Athens-Lamia as opposed to Athens-Thessaloniki).

Another question, are the OKHE layers compatible with ODbL or exempt from copyright as a government document?

My thoughts for the classification discussion flowchart:
1. Basic system for classified roads.
2. Basic system for unclassified roads.
4. Refining of system to prevent orphaned roads
5. Role of bypasses and realignments.
6. Layout of roads in Central Athens and Thessaloniki.
7. Junction layouts – at-grade and grade separated.

Last edited by Amaroussi (2016-03-01 20:48:45)

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#71 2016-03-01 20:48:34

nikospag
Member
From: Piraeus, Greece
Registered: 2012-03-08
Posts: 196
Website

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

About Trikala

I agree with this classification. Map is not confusing and routing seems to work well too.

But i disagree about road names. We should use local names.
Παλαιά Εθνική Οδός 6 should be Λαρίσης all the way through Megalochori and Παλαιά Εθνική Οδός 30 should be Πύλης. These are the local names.

I was thinking that bypasses shouldn’t have a ref tag. But if we see refs as routes (not roads), then yes they can have a ref tag if a route (ref) is going through this bypass.

For example, now ref EO30 is going through Trikala bypass, so this bypass can have a ref tag.
And the old route through the city of Trikala can have an old_ref tag. (as it is now).

@Amaroussi
I disagree about shifting Secondary National roads to trunk because as a result we will end up with too many trunk roads. Imagine a tourist that sees our map, he will think that Greece is a road paradise. smile
I agree about single relations.

Last edited by nikospag (2016-03-01 21:04:51)

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#72 2016-03-01 20:56:51

Amaroussi
Member
From: ATH-LON(!)
Registered: 2013-06-07
Posts: 120

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

Hi,

In reply to JayCBR about national highways not being "continuous", virtually every country trunk or primary routes that requires drivers to make turns and roundabouts to continue along the same route. For example, in Germany (http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=14/52.4047/12.5558), where drivers on the Bundesroute 1 needs to make turns to continue.

It is only the motorways that are usually continuous in many countries, and therefore I cannot see how such obstacles like roundabout is enough a rationale to split the relations of, for example, EO7 or EO2.

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#73 2016-03-01 22:11:25

JayCBR
Member
Registered: 2015-03-11
Posts: 215

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

nikospag wrote:

But i disagree about road names. We should use local names.
Παλαιά Εθνική Οδός 6 should be Λαρίσης all the way through Megalochori and Παλαιά Εθνική Οδός 30 should be Πύλης. These are the local names.

we are on the same page here, local names always have priority over national or provincial..these roads had no local names before, and i wasn't sure of them

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#74 2016-03-01 22:43:21

nikospag
Member
From: Piraeus, Greece
Registered: 2012-03-08
Posts: 196
Website

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

Amarousi wrote:

Another question, are the OKHE layers compatible with ODbL or exempt from copyright as a government document?

OKXE licence is here http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/gr/

JayCBR wrote:

we are on the same page here, local names always have priority over national or provincial

I agree.

Last edited by nikospag (2016-03-02 03:27:37)

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#75 2016-03-03 19:37:04

nikospag
Member
From: Piraeus, Greece
Registered: 2012-03-08
Posts: 196
Website

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

There are some rooads of the secondary provincial network that are dirt roads. How should we tag them?
I think that secondary tag is too much for them.
Should we map them? or not map them at all?
Any opinions?

PS. I'm thinking about changing my vote for secondary provincial roads.

Last edited by nikospag (2016-03-03 23:24:00)

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