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#1 2016-02-11 21:32:57

nikospag
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From: Piraeus, Greece
Registered: 2012-03-08
Posts: 135
Website

Road Classification System (talk & poll)

Transferred comments from changeset http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/37080630 (making Chalkida - Lepoura and Lepoura - Karystos roads secondary as they lead to towns)

Amaroussi wrote:

I disagree with making that national road secondary: Just because Karystos is merely a town doesn't mean that the Greek government considers the road to there unimportant.

nikospag wrote:

I disagree too. This road can't be a secondary road.

JayCBR wrote:

you guys..i thought you agreed on this scheme (roads connecting towns to be secondary)..instead of moving forward we go back?
ps: EO44 in fact ends in Lepoura

nikospag wrote:

I've noticed a strange conflict in this system.We can not classify a road as secondary, that it has EO prefix at the same time, meaning that is characterized as National road by legal documents. Exceptions are National roads that have been replaced at a later time (after 1998).
Exception example is ΕΟ44β, which correctly is classified as secondary because has replaced by A11 in year 2007.

Amaroussi wrote:

What I was trying to say is usually (in many countries), classified roads determines the status, with very limited exceptions (e.g. totally impassable or no cars in Hydra). Then, because a lot of new roads in Greece are unclassified, connecting roads are tagged according to their overall condition between two points (e.g. settlements, junctions). it is never my intention that the classification changes every time the layout changes: that just makes the whole thing confusing for the navigation systems that depend on us.

nikospag, I'd like to point out that we should not spread National roads over more than two classes, to reduce confusion. What is currently mapped as ΕΟ44β is actually Boeotia ΕΠ34 (the latest data for the two units is from 1955), while the A11 follows the ΕΟ44β.

Here we will discuss about a road classification system that we will agree to use from now on.

Last edited by nikospag (2016-02-25 20:25:59)

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#2 2016-02-11 21:43:29

nikospag
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From: Piraeus, Greece
Registered: 2012-03-08
Posts: 135
Website

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

Just to help this conversation i propose to start with the top most issues and afterwards we can proceed in other details.

So I have some questions to make.

  1.What kind of classification system do we want for National and Provincial raods?
     a) A classification system that reflects (not necessary literally) our legal documents? (from 1956 to 1998) or
     b) A classification system that reflects how busy roads are, depending on destinations?
(i think that road conditions are irrelevant, there are surface and smoothness tags for that)

  2.a) We must adapt our map to navigators? or
     b) Navigators must adapt to our map?

Please take your time to think thoroughly and don't hurry your replies up.
Please reply only to the above questions, we must go one step at a time. There are more questions to go.

Last edited by nikospag (2016-02-12 03:09:31)

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#3 2016-02-12 01:07:27

Amaroussi
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From: ATH-LON(!)
Registered: 2013-06-07
Posts: 120

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

Sorry, my mistake on the EO44b, I was busy on the dissertation. (Is there a smiley for a facepalm)?

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#4 2016-02-12 01:54:47

nikospag
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From: Piraeus, Greece
Registered: 2012-03-08
Posts: 135
Website

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

LOL smile Thats ok.(And no facepalms, we all make mistakes) Anyway this particular road is an exception.

Please lets focus on our subject

I will go with 1a (A classification system that reflects legal documents).
and 2b (Navigators must adapt to our map).

My next questions are even more critical, but they depend on our decision on the above questions.

Last edited by nikospag (2016-02-12 03:23:02)

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#5 2016-02-12 04:47:46

Amaroussi
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From: ATH-LON(!)
Registered: 2013-06-07
Posts: 120

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

1(a). The most basic answer to that question is that the system must reflect the legal documents. It is a practice all over OpenStreetMap, from the UK to Germany.

In detail, the classification system should be based on the legal numbering system as far as possible (with limited exceptions such as Hydra, where cars are banned). So for example, National Roads on E-roads should be trunk (since I think the definition of a motor-road is too vague for it to have its own category), all other National Roads should be primary, and Provincial Roads should be secondary.

2(b). Navigators should adapt to OpenStreetMap data: there are dedicated tags that give detailed information such as road layouts, condition, surface and lighting (some may know me for having lit up all the classified roads of London a while back). If we were to classify roads based on condition, then this is why the map of Greece looks rather bare at the moment.

It has been something that I have aimed for since 2013, after the discovery of the provincial roads (and OSM was the first major map to number them).

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#6 2016-02-12 06:28:15

nikospag
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From: Piraeus, Greece
Registered: 2012-03-08
Posts: 135
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Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

Ok, thank you for your reply. Exceptions (not only Hydra, i think there are more), and e-roads will be discussed later. Lets stick with basic issues right now. As i said we will go one step at a time.

So
1a is (+2)  (A classification system that reflects legal documents).
2b is (+2)  (Navigators must adapt to our map).

Last edited by nikospag (2016-02-12 06:45:03)

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#7 2016-02-12 11:37:51

JayCBR
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Registered: 2015-03-11
Posts: 158

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

first of all, there is already a topic about this: "Κατηγορίες δρόμων" and a conversation before that in topic "consensus about road classification" and i dont understand why you made a new one..

second, there is a complete classification system i made some time ago: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Roads_in_Greece and that's the one we need to discuss

i never suggested to map for the navigation software, you just asked me what the voice command says when there is no ref..so 2a is out

i understand there are official documents about road classification (in a country like Germany or UK that should be enough, because there is an organized scheme backed by the state and updated regularly)

in our case these documents are outdated, forgotten and far from reality (there are major roads missing, old provincial roads have become urban highways, or they lead to villages, on the mountains, some are not even paved)..for all these reasons i think road numbering should only be secondary info (nat_ref/reg_ref)

national highways connecting something other than cities or other major destinations, should not be named Εθνική Οδός and should not be primary

i only care to represent reality (in real life road names are based on destinations..a primary road connecting 2 cities is called Εθνική Οδός Θεσσαλονίκης - Φλώρινας, not EO2)

i dont care about the condition of the road (exception:very poor quality roads, without lines of even asphalt)

about EO44: section Thiva - Chalkida should be primary (they both have population over 10000) and named Εθνική Οδός Θήβας - Χαλκίδας..section Chalkida - Lepoura should be secondary because connects Chalkida to towns like Eretria, Aliveri, Kymi and Karystos (all over 2000) and named Επαρχιακή Οδός Χαλκίδας - Ερέτριας, or simple Χαλκίδας - Ερέτριας κτλ

i think this is the best depiction of reality..a driver leaving Chalkida would know his destination simply by road type (when on primary road he ends up in a city, when in secondary he goes to a town)

sorry for the long post i just needed to state my case

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#8 2016-02-12 19:14:02

nikospag
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From: Piraeus, Greece
Registered: 2012-03-08
Posts: 135
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Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

I know about other topics, and I know that they end up nowhere. Besides that, I think it’s best to start all over again and try to clarify the basic issues.

Question 1.a says:  A classification system that reflects (not necessary literally) our legal documents? 
So we will discuss about names, refs etc in the next posts. Actually my next questions will be about that.
I am just trying to put some “boundaries” in this conversation so we can end up somewhere.

And as for EO44, section Chalkida – Lepoura, as you said connects Chalkida to towns like Eretria, Aliveri, Kymi and Karystos (all over 2000), not only one town, and if you add them up I am sure that are over 10000.
In fact, every driver that wants to go to South Evoia will go through section Chalkida – Lepoura. Think about it.

Thank you for your reply

So question 2 becomes:
Rule#2: Navigators must adapt to our map

Last edited by nikospag (2016-02-12 19:14:35)

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#9 2016-02-13 02:09:12

nikospag
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From: Piraeus, Greece
Registered: 2012-03-08
Posts: 135
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Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

I am taking the above occasion to point out another point of view.

Let’s ask ourselves, why Greek government has “labeled” those roads as national roads?
And why Greek government has “labeled” the above particular road (Chalkida – Lepoura) as a national road? Is this road so important?
(This road is just an example)

I think that when Greek government “labels” roads it has in mind the entire (geographical area) population that a particular road serves.
So, government, doesn’t see destinations separately. Please think about that too.

(I'm just putting this point of view too on the “negotiating table”)

Last edited by nikospag (2016-02-13 02:40:04)

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#10 2016-02-13 04:51:48

nikospag
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From: Piraeus, Greece
Registered: 2012-03-08
Posts: 135
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Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

National roads are registered in two legal documents (of 1963 and of 1998) that they almost agree with each other.
In fact 1998 document is based on 1963 document. That it’s already referenced in 1998 document.

So, next question is:

3. National roads basically should be tagged as:
    a) Primary, according to the above documents (with exceptions of course)
    b) Primary or Secondary, according to their busyness and their destinations. (cities, towns, etc)
         (don’t confuse busyness with business smile)

(All exceptions, of every rule, will be discussed later. At first let’s agree on the basic rules).

Last edited by nikospag (2016-02-13 04:57:16)

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#11 2016-02-13 08:25:04

Amaroussi
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From: ATH-LON(!)
Registered: 2013-06-07
Posts: 120

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

3. I think it should be "3a" as the minimum: in detail, I desire that National Roads on E-roads should be trunk (since I think the definition of a motor-road is too vague for it to have its own category), and all other National Roads should be primary.

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#12 2016-02-13 10:01:54

nikospag
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From: Piraeus, Greece
Registered: 2012-03-08
Posts: 135
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Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

I will go with 3a too of course, because 3b its a matter of personal perception.

But I can’t understand the commitment that you are proposing. (National Roads on E-roads should be trunk).
E-roads are just routes, and they have nothing to do with if a road must be primary or secondary or trunk.
E-roads can go through any road as they are just routes.

Last edited by nikospag (2016-02-13 10:05:05)

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#13 2016-02-13 13:32:31

Amaroussi
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From: ATH-LON(!)
Registered: 2013-06-07
Posts: 120

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

I was wondering that if we were to tag all National Roads as primary (level 3), then what do you think would be trunk (level 2)?

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#14 2016-02-13 14:33:09

JayCBR
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Registered: 2015-03-11
Posts: 158

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

i dont think 3b is a matter of personal perception..in fact in the first ever definition of national highways by the Greek state,a national highway is a road connecting cities, major airports/seaports/archaelogical sites and major military sites (the last one explains roads leading to military airports) source: Βασιλικό Διάταγμα 9-8-1955 "Περί Καθορισμού των Εθνικών Οδών κατά τις διατάξεις του Ν. 3155/1955"

a city is over 10000 or former prefecture capital (population doesnt change much, is updated only once in 10 years)
archaelogical sites dont go anywhere
major airports (international) are clearly defined

as for the total population a highway serves, thats hard to estimate (there is no need to complicate things)

about national highways spanning in 3 road types:there are in fact laws in effect (ΦΕΚ30Β/1996, ΦΕΚ735Β/1995,  ΦΕΚ664Β/1995) that separate national highways in primary, secondary and tertiary

also ΦΕΚ293Β/1995 separates provincial roads in primary and secondary

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#15 2016-02-13 15:25:57

JayCBR
Member
Registered: 2015-03-11
Posts: 158

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

i searched all the sources mentioned in ΦΕΚ253/2015 ΑΑΠ and i managed to download them from www.et.gr (αναζήτηση ΦΕΚ)
i think the 1995 documents could clarify the situation about what is primary/secondary etc

i believe this is the proper way to do it:

πρωτεύον εθνικό δίκτυο - trunk
δευτερεύον εθνικό δίκτυο - primary
τριτεύον εθνικό δίκτυο - secondary
πρωτεύον επαρχιακό δίκτυο - tertiary

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#16 2016-02-13 19:26:16

Amaroussi
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From: ATH-LON(!)
Registered: 2013-06-07
Posts: 120

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

While the following source is copyrighted by Egnatia Odos, I refer to this map of the Arcadia regional unit (on page 31) as an example why it is not a bad idea to split National Roads and Provincial Roads: http://www.egnatia.gr/Files/Adverts/5012_sow.pdf

Splitting the roads just adds a great layer of unnecessary complexity to the map, when for many years National and Provincial Roads were simply just that in common use.

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#17 2016-02-13 21:30:26

JayCBR
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Registered: 2015-03-11
Posts: 158

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

amaroussi you are again out of sync..you wanted to go by official documents..i give you official government decisions about road classification and you are still against

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#18 2016-02-14 01:56:57

nikospag
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From: Piraeus, Greece
Registered: 2012-03-08
Posts: 135
Website

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

Well, because i strongly suspect that this conversation will be toooo long, and in the end we will not end up on any conclusion (see other topics),
I say (declare) that it was wrong to have taken the initiative to try to bring this community into an agreement.

Consequently, and because all of these conflicts are becoming frustrating, henceforth I stop having a primary role in this convesation. From now on, my role will be secondary, and where is possible consultative
If someone else wants to regulate this discussion please feel free do it.

I will study thoroughly all the above ΦΕΚ documents, and then I will reply accordingly

Last edited by nikospag (2016-02-14 03:38:49)

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#19 2016-02-14 02:31:59

Amaroussi
Member
From: ATH-LON(!)
Registered: 2013-06-07
Posts: 120

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

Hi,

The future of the OSM Greek community is very much at stake here if we do not come to an agreement soon. I am tired right now, but can JayCBR please point out where I ever agreed to change from "ref" to "nat_ref". I do not remember been shown the ΦΕΚ30Β/1996, ΦΕΚ735Β/1995,  ΦΕΚ664Β/1995 documents before you pointed it out yesterday.

I am just a mere minion in the debate right now because I am no longer bothered to pick a side in any debate, let alone do anything more than local traffic flows and undiscovered local roads. I tried hard to make good use of what is available, only to end up in such a crippling deadlock.

However, I blame nobody because the entire road classification system was crippled long before OSM even existed. There is simply no certainty in the system that the government created, made far more complex with the multiple levels of national and provincial roads.

Last edited by Amaroussi (2016-02-14 02:51:24)

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#20 2016-02-14 07:30:16

nikospag
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From: Piraeus, Greece
Registered: 2012-03-08
Posts: 135
Website

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

At first look on the above documents, that JayCBR posted, i am starting to see a hope of finding common ground. I will post more later.

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#21 2016-02-14 10:57:25

JayCBR
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Registered: 2015-03-11
Posts: 158

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

it appears these documents could be the solution to any issue, it clearly says which national highways belong to primary. secondary and tertiary road networks, there is also ΦΕΚ 293Β/1995 about reassignment of provincial roads, i found all of them yesterday

OFF-TOPIC:
dont overcomplicate things, we wait until the end of February for other opinions..if there are not, we reach an agreement ourselves, with some compromise

about nat_ref we talked about it some months ago, when we decided to use the 1998 Registry of National Highways and found out there are problems (it looks like road operators never took these new numbers into account, so there are differences between the 1998 document and reality, so nat_ref for the 1998 numbers and ref for the actual numbers in use)

example 1: Northern Cretan Highway appears as ΕΟ90α in the 1998 Registry, but ΕΟ90 on the road (nat_ref=EO90α, ref=EO90)
example 2: section Chalastra - Polykastro of E75 appears as ΕΟ1α in the Registry, but EO1 on the road (nat_ref=EO1α, ref=EO1)

as i told nikospag in private..there is no need to step back..this is not a competition..this only works with cooperation

Last edited by JayCBR (2016-02-14 12:12:21)

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#22 2016-02-14 13:19:56

Amaroussi
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From: ATH-LON(!)
Registered: 2013-06-07
Posts: 120

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

This is the first time I have seen such documents, but that still leaves the issue of trunk being unused if we were to take those literally (e.g. primary to primary), and I am not sure about the rural/urban separation (as it stands on International equivalence).

We'll address how roads bypass towns and cities where there is one later.

Last edited by Amaroussi (2016-02-14 13:23:00)

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#23 2016-02-14 16:08:57

JayCBR
Member
Registered: 2015-03-11
Posts: 158

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

well if you look carefully i already said my opinion (reply #15), i am also updating the wiki

i finished the primary and tertiary national network tables

a lot of primary national highways are already motorways, so no reason to mention them

most of the tertiary highways are those military airport roads, and other minor ones

about trunk i was thinking maybe to include roads that arent motorways yet but they are planned to be as ΦΕΚ253ΑΑΠ suggests

Last edited by JayCBR (2016-02-14 16:17:16)

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#24 2016-02-14 19:04:24

Amaroussi
Member
From: ATH-LON(!)
Registered: 2013-06-07
Posts: 120

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

How about:

highway=trunk: Primary National Network
highway=primary: Secondary National Network
highway=secondary: Tertiary National Network

highway=primary: Primary Provincial Network
highway=secondary: Secondary Provincial Network

I prefer that some distinction be made between the lowest class of provincial road and high=tertiary for un-gazetted roads to villages and local roads with priority (is that the correct term?). I am quite late to this, though.

Last edited by Amaroussi (2016-02-14 19:07:10)

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#25 2016-02-14 21:06:09

mtraveller
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Registered: 2015-09-28
Posts: 9

Re: Road Classification System (talk & poll)

Amaroussi wrote:

How about:

highway=trunk: Primary National Network
highway=primary: Secondary National Network
highway=secondary: Tertiary National Network

highway=primary: Primary Provincial Network
highway=secondary: Secondary Provincial Network

I am not as experienced as all of you are on this subject and therefore my input will be limited. Surely though, I will take some time to study all these documents later this week - and even find out if there are any others that we might be missing. Regardless, I will try to point out a few things and hopefully this would be helpful to all of you - if not just ignore me...

Even if I am not familiar (as a driver) with every road in Greece, I am quite aware of the significance of provincial AND primary municipal roads (κύριες δημοτικές οδοί) especially in the region of Cyclades. The first ones are surely "the most important ones" in the region. The second ones are the "next most important ones". There is a clearly distinction between those two and at the same time they are both more important than unclassified or residential ones. I really don't think that BOTH of  them could be mapped as "tertiary" or "secondary" roads, so there has to be another way to do that. Let me put it this way: Provincial roads are the main arteries of a local road network and as a result, they get most of the traffic and also most of the attention (as in funds for maintenance). Main municipal roads are also important enough, as they are almost always connected directly to the provincial roads and they do reach a village. They are not unclassified, and they surely aren't as unimportant as residential ones.

In other words, I completely agree with this:

Amaroussi wrote:

I prefer that some distinction be made between the lowest class of provincial road and high=tertiary for un-gazetted roads to villages and local roads with priority (is that the correct term?). I am quite late to this, though.

Here's an actual example:

According to ΦΕΚ 47Α/1956, the island of Mykonos has two provincial roads:

1: Ormos Agiou Ioannou - Mykonos - Agios Stefanos
2: Mykonos - Ano Meria

There are of course many other roads which connect those provincial roads with other villages (and the airport in this case).

So, why main municipal roads are so important?

One answer could be found on ΦΕΚ 270Δ/1985.

Ως Δημοτικοί ή Κοινοτικοί οδοί (...) θεωρούνται οι οδοί που ενώνουν οικισμούς του αυτού δήμου ή κοινότητας μεταξύ τους ή οικισμούς όμορφων δήμων ή Κοινοτήτων ή με Διεθνείς Εθνικές ή Επαρχιακές οδούς. (...) Η αναγνώριση των οδών αυτών σε κυριότερους ή μοναδικούς γίνεται με απόφαση του οικείου Νομάρχη μετά από γνώμη του Συμβουλίου Χωροταξίας Οικισμού και Περιβάλλοντος του νομού.

More or less these roads are exactly what OSM wiki defines as tertiary ones. They are surely not as important as secondary ones, and they are surely not unimportant as residential ones. Of course some parts of these municipal roads might nowdays be irrelevant and have no actual use, but those could easily be "unclassified" (as the wiki suggest to do so, in case these roads are now quitter and unimportant).

But, which roads are the main municipal roads?

It's easy to determine which are these roads just by definition (the same definition of tertiary roads, according to the wiki). Unfortunately, I can't find a list and of course there are no signs. There are many random official documents (like this one) though, which both confirm their existence and their names.

TL;DR I do believe that a distinction has to be made between the lowest class of provincial roads and "un-gazetted" roads to villages.

Now, if these roads are highway=tertiary , then provincial roads should be highway=secondary or highway=primary, according to their actual classification. The documents which JayCBR provided are indeed helpful in most of the cases.

JayCBR wrote:

about national highways spanning in 3 road types:there are in fact laws in effect (ΦΕΚ30Β/1996, ΦΕΚ735Β/1995,  ΦΕΚ664Β/1995) that separate national highways in primary, secondary and tertiary
also ΦΕΚ293Β/1995 separates provincial roads in primary and secondary

I've noticed though that ΦΕΚ 293Β/1995 doesn't include the region of Cyclades. ΦΕΚ 423Β/1995 has an answer:

... δεν χρειάζεται οι Επαρχιακοί Δρόμοι των Νησιών εκτός από την Κρήτη, Εύβοια, Κέρκυρα και Ρόδο να καταταγούν στο Πρωτεύον και Δευτερεύον Επαρχιακό Οδικό Δίκτυο.

.

Therefore, to add something to Amaroussi's scheme, highway=secondary could be used for these cases as well (I am sure he could find some words to describe it... e.g. secondary and unclassified provincial network? non-primary provincial network). Which by they way, I think it is exactly what most of us did, even before we had this discussion.

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