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#26 2013-05-24 17:41:02

zstadler
Member
Registered: 2012-05-05
Posts: 341
Website

Re: Military areas in Israel (remove or not remove?)

Hi,

I believe both Firing zones/ranges and significant military bases should be mapped. Firing zone signes do not help you when you want to plan a trip. By the time you get there, it's no longer planning time - it's detour time...

Similarly, when you plan a trip in the Negev only to find that a track crosses a base and you need to do a 10-15 km backtrack to get to a road before the night comes. I'm not making this up, it happened to me.

In my opinion, getting stuck in the desert at dark, close to the fence of an army base, is much more dangerous than the risk of someone choosing to use the OSM map to find an IDF base.

Come to think of it, that base looks much better on the Bing map that was used to draw its perimeter in OSM.

When the Israeli Government publishes information, in Aviation directives and maps, the Government map portal, and other means, it no longer can be labeled "confidential" or "risk to Israel's security", even under Israeli law. The horses are already out of the barn. In many cases, it's the Israeli government who let them free...

Zeev

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#27 2013-05-24 20:23:26

Ilya Kogan
Member
Registered: 2013-05-24
Posts: 13

Re: Military areas in Israel (remove or not remove?)

I agree that there's no reason to be "holier than the pope". Mapping well-known military bases that are already available, e.g. in GTFS data of the ministry of transport, is completely risk-free yet can be vital for navigation and security. Of course we can have some restrictions, such as that the base name must be identical to that on road signs or in GTFS data and not include any extra information.

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#28 2013-05-26 06:32:38

zstadler
Member
Registered: 2012-05-05
Posts: 341
Website

Re: Military areas in Israel (remove or not remove?)

Since all reported deletion actions have been done by one user - Wikipod - I encouraged him via a PM to join the discussion:

Wikipod,

Your actions have restarted the discussion on Military areas in Israel (remove or not remove?).

You are welcome to read what other people are writing and justify your actions as part of an open discussion.

Zeev

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#29 2013-06-07 10:01:11

saigon2001
Member
Registered: 2013-05-23
Posts: 2

Re: Military areas in Israel (remove or not remove?)

User Wikipod alreeady joined discussion some time ago.

I'd like to quote OSM wiki:

Note that Israel may have its own national laws. In that case the Israelian laws should be respected for what is mapped in Israel. This should not affect other countries (and not even the areas occupied by the Israelian army which are not in its civilian juridiction, but just temporary places of military actions). Verdy p 09:23, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

We need to adduce consistent arguments for deleting military landuses. Otherwise I can't find any motivation to keep on such activity in occupied territories.

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#30 2013-06-07 10:08:42

zstadler
Member
Registered: 2012-05-05
Posts: 341
Website

Re: Military areas in Israel (remove or not remove?)

FYI, given the discussion above, I have restored my contribution.

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#31 2013-07-07 21:27:49

zstadler
Member
Registered: 2012-05-05
Posts: 341
Website

Re: Military areas in Israel (remove or not remove?)

On 21-June-2013 user Wikipod had once again deleted my contribution of way 221795856

In my opinion, Wikipod's actions are acts of vandalism:

Otherwise, Wikipod has been a constructive contributor to OSM. It is unfortunate that Wikipod also brings personal agenda and vandalism to the OSM community.

In a week from today I'm planning to contact the Data Working Group suggesting a for advice on the situation.
Perhaps in this period Wikipod will commit to stopping this behavior and we can put it behind us.

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#32 2013-07-12 18:12:57

yrtimiD
Moderator
From: Israel
Registered: 2010-10-08
Posts: 249

Re: Military areas in Israel (remove or not remove?)

Guys, another interesting object: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/222405093
The author is very collaborative, so I asking you - remove or leave?

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#33 2013-07-12 18:52:24

zstadler
Member
Registered: 2012-05-05
Posts: 341
Website

Re: Military areas in Israel (remove or not remove?)

It's public knowledge.

See the entry on the Mossad facilities in the Hebrew Wikipedia, and the references to publications in Haaretz dated back to 2007

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#34 2013-07-12 19:12:50

yrtimiD
Moderator
From: Israel
Registered: 2010-10-08
Posts: 249

Re: Military areas in Israel (remove or not remove?)

Ok, so you suggest to not remove it?

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#35 2013-07-13 20:52:04

Wikipod
Member
From: Israel, Palestinian Held Areas
Registered: 2011-11-15
Posts: 9

Re: Military areas in Israel (remove or not remove?)

zstadler wrote:

On 21-June-2013 user Wikipod had once again deleted my contribution of way 221795856

In my opinion, Wikipod's actions are acts of vandalism:

Otherwise, Wikipod has been a constructive contributor to OSM. It is unfortunate that Wikipod also brings personal agenda and vandalism to the OSM community.

In a week from today I'm planning to contact the Data Working Group suggesting a for advice on the situation.
Perhaps in this period Wikipod will commit to stopping this behavior and we can put it behind us.

Dear Ze'ev,

I welcome you to watch my edits list, and then reconsider labaling me "vandal". My deletions are not even 1% of all of my work here.

As i said many times before, i really don't like deletion of other's work, but this is necessary. You didn't respected our decision and your country's law so don't expect me respect your work. Please stop your hostile activity against me. I do not use "personal agenda", I just keep Israel's interests.

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#36 2013-07-13 21:03:26

Wikipod
Member
From: Israel, Palestinian Held Areas
Registered: 2011-11-15
Posts: 9

Re: Military areas in Israel (remove or not remove?)

zstadler wrote:

It's public knowledge.

See the entry on the Mossad facilities in the Hebrew Wikipedia, and the references to publications in Haaretz dated back to 2007

yrtimiD wrote:

Ok, so you suggest to not remove it?

It's not matter if someone in the world knows about or ever wrote obout it in a newspaper - if it a base of Israeli security forces - we DO NOT map it. Besides "HaAretz" not care about israel security - they publish lots of secret information. (remind you Anat Kam's Case)

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#37 2013-07-14 11:10:19

valleyofdawn
Member
Registered: 2010-11-14
Posts: 221

Re: Military areas in Israel (remove or not remove?)

Please calm down everyone - we're all here to do good. An edit war or flame war won't get us anywhere.
Let's see if we can reach an agreement on our policies.
To abide by the Israeli law, I suggest that we only map military areas that are marked on non-classified official Israeli maps.
These include training areas marked on the gov.il map.
It also does no harm, and should be legal, to trace roads or buildings visible in Bing maps, even if they are inside military areas.
As for naming these areas and identifying the buildings, I think we should avoid that.
Maybe we can use what can be seen in road signs such as:
מ.ק. 354

What are your thoughts?

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#38 2013-07-14 11:29:15

yrtimiD
Moderator
From: Israel
Registered: 2010-10-08
Posts: 249

Re: Military areas in Israel (remove or not remove?)

What kind of law are we talking about?

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#39 2013-07-14 14:09:14

valleyofdawn
Member
Registered: 2010-11-14
Posts: 221

Re: Military areas in Israel (remove or not remove?)

I'm no lawyer.

Try this http://www.nevo.co.il/law_html/law01/07 … tm#Seif532

מסירת ידיעה לאויב [ד/21]
111. מי שביודעין מסר ידיעה לאויב או בשבילו, דינו -  מאסר עשר שנים; היתה הידיעה עלולה להיות לתועלת האויב, דינו -  מאסר חמש-עשרה שנה; התכוון בכך לפגוע בבטחון המדינה, דינו - מאסר עולם; גרם ברשלנות שתימסר לאויב או בשבילו ידיעה העלולה להיות לתועלתו, דינו -  מאסר שלוש שנים.
ריגול [ד/22]

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#40 2013-07-14 21:22:42

yrtimiD
Moderator
From: Israel
Registered: 2010-10-08
Posts: 249

Re: Military areas in Israel (remove or not remove?)

valleyofdawn wrote:

Here they are speaking about "Secret information". I'm very unsure that road signs with military bases names may be categorized as such information...

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#41 2013-07-14 21:57:17

valleyofdawn
Member
Registered: 2010-11-14
Posts: 221

Re: Military areas in Israel (remove or not remove?)

I agree. Let's see what Wikipod thinks.

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#42 2013-07-15 16:29:10

Wikipod
Member
From: Israel, Palestinian Held Areas
Registered: 2011-11-15
Posts: 9

Re: Military areas in Israel (remove or not remove?)

It's not classified as "secret", but this information is still promlematic for being published in the internet. The porpuse of the signs is to guide soldiers to the bases (And that's why these signs written only in Hebrew). When we take all of this signs and we map them, it's may be problematic. I mean, it's the same like the bases itselfs - IDF are not trying to hide most of their bases by the real world but they are trying to prevent people from mapping it so people who trying to harm Israeli Bases would work harder to do so. (That the basic idea stands behind)

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#43 2013-07-15 17:42:36

valleyofdawn
Member
Registered: 2010-11-14
Posts: 221

Re: Military areas in Israel (remove or not remove?)

Perhaps we should directly ask the "Head Censor" what is permitted.
In the meantime, Wikipod, are you OK with the training grounds and roads within bases.
Otherwise our enemies wold look for roads that appear in Google Sat images and not in OSM and figure out where the bases are wink.

Chief Censor Lt. Col. Sima Waknin Gil  057 8189051
General Office exchange:03-7605800/1, Designated Fax to submit articles: 03-7605879

Last edited by valleyofdawn (2013-07-15 17:46:25)

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#44 2013-07-16 18:33:42

Axelode
Member
Registered: 2013-07-16
Posts: 1

Re: Military areas in Israel (remove or not remove?)

Hi All,

I gather, from reading Wikipod's posts, that it is illegal in Israel to publicly identify security installations.

Although it is my belief and hope that no one in the OSM community would want to jeopardize the security of civilians in any part of the world by exposing national safety apparatus, please allow me to remind you that OSM is not a regional platform but a universal open source initiative built and maintained by a collectivity of non-affiliated contributors. Wikipod is on a manic unilateral delete spree and he should be reasoned.

Let me share this story with you:

I was once arrested by an illiterate Afghan policeman because I was allegedly taking pictures of military installations in Kabul (basically there was a watchtower behind the three local ladies I had photographed). Once in custody, I explained through the various levels of the chain of command (mostly with sign language) that if one needed data about their set up, they wouldn't use a 35mm non-reflex camera with 400 ASA black & white film...  Well, it was nice to share the commanding officer's meal while waiting for the senior intelligence officer to finally clear me.

Judging from his actions, I believe that Wikipod is not much more enlightened than the Afghan policeman I once cross path with. As this is more your hood than mine, I shall leave it to you guys to deal with this, hopefully in the spirit of an open source community.

Axelode

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#45 2013-07-19 07:52:15

zstadler
Member
Registered: 2012-05-05
Posts: 341
Website

Re: Military areas in Israel (remove or not remove?)

There are two different topics which are getting mixed-up in this thread:
1. What can and cannot be mapped by Israeli Citizens
2. Wikipod's acceptance of the OSM rules and regulations

Based on Wikipods responses and actions, he does accept the OSM rules or the community view. What's the point of negotiating the guidelines with a person who accepts only to his own guidelines?

Wikipod's contribution to OSM does not earn him the right to vandalism - repeatedly removing correct and legally published information from the OSM database.

Let Wikipod first commit to accept the OSM guidelines and refraining for further unjustified deletions. Only then his opinions should be heard.

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#46 2013-07-25 15:10:21

Wikipod
Member
From: Israel, Palestinian Held Areas
Registered: 2011-11-15
Posts: 9

Re: Military areas in Israel (remove or not remove?)

Ze'ev,
I really don't know how do you base your claim. I did accepted OSM regulations, and there is no reference for deletion of information could damage country's security.
Why we should not start discuss about your acceptance of your own country's law before we're talking about me? Do you know what are the implications of your dids?

Valleyofdawn,
Did you got answer from Chief Censor? It will be great if we get unequivocal answer about this topic.

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#47 2013-07-25 17:42:41

zstadler
Member
Registered: 2012-05-05
Posts: 341
Website

Re: Military areas in Israel (remove or not remove?)

Wikipod,

OSM expect everyone to increase the accuracy and correctness of the map, as described by the page on Vandalism. Your actions clearly did the opposit.

I fully obey my country's laws.The area I mapped as military was published as such by official Israeli authorities including the Survey of Israel.
I will not publish a copy of the official "Israeli Trails" map that also shows the area as military. Such an act COULD be breaking the Israeli copyright law.

That did not prevent you from deleting it. The second time you deleted it was after you were shown that the information was already published by the Israeli government.

Evidently you are muli-talented:

A lawmaker - you set the rules on what should or should not be published, regardless of OSM rules or Israeli law. You know the Israeli interests better than the 120 members of the Knesset.
A censor - you decide what's forbidden by your laws, including information approved by the Israeli military censorship and officially published by the Israeli government. Again, you know better than the appointed officials.
A policeman - you execute your decisions despite not receiving any empowerment for the OSM organization or the Israeli law enforcement agencies
A judge - you pass judgement on anyone objecting to your own decisions, reverting their actions, and accusing them of disobeying the law

Again, I suggest you resign from all the above roles and continue with the constructive work you've done for OSM Israel

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#48 2014-02-14 13:27:50

Schina02
Member
Registered: 2013-10-19
Posts: 278

Re: Military areas in Israel (remove or not remove?)

Hello, I think one should obey the law you are put under. In most cases I guess it just means that you are not allowed to map some things, not that it is your duty to delete things. That is especially a question for yourself: "What laws are regulating me and what I map? Do I want to risk mapping something that could be illegal and can be have consequences for me?" In the end this is a very personal matter, but a more or less objectiv. You have to decide for yourself and have to take the responsibility.

The other thing is the problem not to put other people in danger. You can argue that mapping military facilities can help enemies attacking these sites. On the other hand, and as mentioned above, this can also apply to shopping malls, public transport and other stuff. So, who decides what to map and what not? In the end it is a very subjective issue. Also you have to concern, that a state can say a lot and sometimes exceeds its authority (I remember a case where a french intelligence service forced someone to delete a wikipedia article). If things are mapped that concern the security, I think, the state can take legal actions on this issue (which will lead to the passage above). And I think, if state authorities have evidence of OSM data threatens national security, they will take these legal actions. So if you have not heared from court decisions or similar in that direction, I would assume that there is no big problem with this data and would strongly recommend not to delete entries of military facilites and similar installations.

But that is just my opinion, I do not live in Israel and I am not threatend by rockets or suicide bombers. But as said, the israelian state takes so much effort to protect israelian citizens and soldiers (some would say too much) that, if OSM data would be a problem, you surely would notice that.

Kind regards from Germany

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#49 2014-05-31 13:50:09

valleyofdawn
Member
Registered: 2010-11-14
Posts: 221

Re: Military areas in Israel (remove or not remove?)

Going back to the issue.
For hikers/bikers/4Wdrivrs the main reason they should consider military bases is to understand where they can pass and where they can't.
Do you think it makes sense and abides by the Israeli law to map the fences surrounding military bases without tagging the area as military or calling it by name?

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#50 2014-06-01 18:41:58

Mr_Israel
Moderator
From: Israel, Germany
Registered: 2009-03-02
Posts: 513

Re: Military areas in Israel (remove or not remove?)

I think a fence can be defined without defining area. So if there is a fence just tag it as fence.
As I'm against mapping military features, I would try to avoid putting a military area just because there is a fence smile

Enjoy Life !

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