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#1 2009-06-28 12:18:32

Mr_Israel
Moderator
From: Israel, Germany
Registered: 2009-03-02
Posts: 513

Military areas in Israel (remove or not remove?)

Hi everybody,

as Israel is a country where there is always a possibility of a war, I don't like the idea of mapping military areas on the map.
Just the thought of helping terror organization with a good detailed Israeli map...

As we discussed a while ago in the old mailing list, we are not mapping military buildings / areas.

But what if somebody does tag them?

- Should we remove them without a comment ?
- Should we message the person who have mapped it ?

As the OpenStreetMap project is a platform for everybody (also non-Israeli),
it will become hard to get rid of all of those tags and I dont like the idea of removing something from the map.

What do you think about this topic ?

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#2 2009-06-28 12:22:47

udif
Member
Registered: 2009-06-01
Posts: 7

Re: Military areas in Israel (remove or not remove?)

I think there is also a problem with the built-in version control.
As far as I understand, even if you delete something it is actually still there if you look for it.

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#3 2009-06-28 14:15:17

Baruch
Member
Registered: 2009-03-11
Posts: 24

Re: Military areas in Israel (remove or not remove?)

I see no real reason to avoid mapping the whereabouts of military bases. I wouldn't map the inside of the bases, there is little reason for that, but I would like to be able to tell a mapping program to go to Elyakim and find me the way to the base.

What do other web maps do?

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#4 2009-06-28 14:17:20

Mr_Israel
Moderator
From: Israel, Germany
Registered: 2009-03-02
Posts: 513

Re: Military areas in Israel (remove or not remove?)

I heard that other web maps of Israel do show the big military bases. But I didnt see it by myself.

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#5 2009-06-28 14:39:22

Baruch
Member
Registered: 2009-03-11
Posts: 24

Re: Military areas in Israel (remove or not remove?)

The problem I see with not mapping the military bases is that it harms the normal folks who just need to get to some base for their reserve duty while it doesn't do much for the enemy as the bases are not really hidden, they are clearly marked on the road with signposts. Just driving around will let you know where the bases are, but when I go for my service I don't have time to wander around to find the base, that's why I have a map and a GPS unit in the car.

At least waze doesn't seem to show the two bases I look at, though it does show "access road to elyakim" it doesn't show the base itself.

Anyway, if someone maps the data and you remove it, it is still in the history and can be restored and found, though it's harder to find when not in the normal features.

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#6 2009-06-28 15:17:07

talkat
Member
Registered: 2009-03-06
Posts: 381

Re: Military areas in Israel (remove or not remove?)

Mr_Israel wrote:

I heard that other web maps of Israel do show the big military bases. But I didnt see it by myself.

WikiMapia has several.
With such details, that the Rasar can check for Pilim BaKane in the morning drill big_smile

WikiMapia also clearly marks some installations that are not "clearly marked on the road with signposts", if you know what I mean...


I believe that this is an uphill battle, as I think that some of the already existing military features in OSM were not added by Israelis.
It will be hard to follow and delete any new additions.
Not to mention the already mentioned history feature of OSM...

talkat.

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#7 2009-06-28 20:17:25

EdoM
Member
Registered: 2009-03-06
Posts: 36

Re: Military areas in Israel (remove or not remove?)

I thing people with bad behaviours doesn't need to look at the map to know where the targets are..
You know, russia had "fake" maps with unexisting towns and without existings... but americans knows what is in the field.
satellite immagery of Israel is easy to find on Google maps...

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#8 2009-06-29 07:06:45

talba
Member
Registered: 2009-03-02
Posts: 56

Re: Military areas in Israel (remove or not remove?)

Mr_Israel wrote:

Hi everybody,

as Israel is a country where there is always a possibility of a war, I don't like the idea of mapping military areas on the map.
Just the thought of helping terror organization with a good detailed Israeli map...

Keep in mind, that shopping malls should probably also be removed, in order to make the life of a terrorist a little worse - they would have to look at other less known map sites smile

Mr_Israel wrote:

As we discussed a while ago in the old mailing list, we are not mapping military buildings / areas.

But what if somebody does tag them?

- Should we remove them without a comment ?
- Should we message the person who have mapped it ?

As the OpenStreetMap project is a platform for everybody (also non-Israeli),
it will become hard to get rid of all of those tags and I dont like the idea of removing something from the map.

What do you think about this topic ?

I say:

1. don't map military related features. For Israeli citizens that might be illegal. Don't ask your friends abroad to map it for you... that might also be illegal.

2. Don't delete accurate license-compatible information, that is a misuse of OSM.

3. The problem is small, the world is changing, that information is freely available from other places on the net.

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#9 2011-09-13 14:15:40

haggai_e
Member
Registered: 2011-09-13
Posts: 2

Re: Military areas in Israel (remove or not remove?)

Hi,
I'm a little new to OSM.  I'm mapping Yokne'am Ilit, and I mapped today two public war shelters. It occurred to me that it might fall under the definition of military area (the most relevant tag I found was military=bunker), although they are used only by civilians. I wanted to ask if you think such places should be mapped.

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#10 2011-09-14 06:54:55

adrukh
Member
Registered: 2010-03-19
Posts: 86

Re: Military areas in Israel (remove or not remove?)

Welcome!

I don't think mapping such places is against the local law, but I am no expert. Personally, I would map them.

But military=bunker doesn't seem right, as the shelters are for civilians (if I understood correctly).

I was thinking about amenity=shelter, but that is used for shelter from weather while hiking or similar. Someone mentioned bomb shelters towards the end of the discussion page, but that did not evolve. Care to revive that on the wiki, maybe propose shelter=*, or amenity=emergency_shelter?

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#11 2011-09-14 10:08:21

Mr_Israel
Moderator
From: Israel, Germany
Registered: 2009-03-02
Posts: 513

Re: Military areas in Israel (remove or not remove?)

Hi Haggai_e,

and welcome to the forum.

I think that a shelter shouldn't be critical at all for the home land security and that those things are important for a detailed map.
So you are welcome to post as many as you wish smile

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#12 2011-11-13 21:44:54

yrtimiD
Moderator
From: Israel
Registered: 2010-10-08
Posts: 249

Re: Military areas in Israel (remove or not remove?)

So, what the final decision?
Is somebody against adding single node for some "popular" military bases for which exists road signs?

I want to add "Mahane Gideon" and "Julis" for navigation purposes.

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#13 2011-11-14 10:29:02

Mr_Israel
Moderator
From: Israel, Germany
Registered: 2009-03-02
Posts: 513

Re: Military areas in Israel (remove or not remove?)

Final decision was not to map military areas but also not to remove those areas is already existing.

There where several public known military bases in OSM but user Wikipod deleted them.
http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Wikipod/diary

I personally think that we should keep all military stuff out of OSM in Israel.
Who knows if it can or will be used against us in the future.

I will ping him for his decision... It doesn't make sense that you add it and he will remove it smile

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#14 2011-11-15 14:51:52

valleyofdawn
Member
Registered: 2010-11-14
Posts: 221

Re: Military areas in Israel (remove or not remove?)

I'm OK with not including military bases in the map. But falsely tagging them as farmland or forest, as has been done, is too much.

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#15 2011-11-15 18:58:55

Wikipod
Member
From: Israel, Palestinian Held Areas
Registered: 2011-11-15
Posts: 9

Re: Military areas in Israel (remove or not remove?)

Hi everybody!

As some of you noticed, I was responsible for deletion of almost all of the military areas in the map of Israel. I didn't felt good with deleting things that others were working on them, and I feel sorry about it. But, I felt a greater commitment to our country and it's security matters, so I made this step, even i did'nt felt good with it.

I must tell you that Palestinian Activists from the terror organizations did used OSM for their goals.
I know it clealy becuase i'm working with some of those, so plese be aware of your edits.

Many thanks to Mr_Israel for notifying me about this discussion!

Have nice and safe mapping,
Wikipod

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#16 2011-11-20 19:13:06

dimka
Member
Registered: 2010-04-01
Posts: 257

Re: Military areas in Israel (remove or not remove?)

yrtimiD wrote:

So, what the final decision?
Is somebody against adding single node for some "popular" military bases for which exists road signs?

I want to add "Mahane Gideon" and "Julis" for navigation purposes.

If adding these nodes will simplify navigation (say for a mother who wants to pick up her son coming home for the weekend), then they should be added. Not having them on purpose to my point of view (I am no expert, though) doesn't contribute anything to the security of our country.

Note that wikipedia has info on many IDF military bases including their location (even exact coordinates).

@Wikipod, just out of interest - can you point to the law you mentioned in your diary? Still, law or not,  it seems ridiculous that revealing the location of HaKirya or HaShalishut is a crime.


dimka

Last edited by dimka (2011-11-20 19:13:42)

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#17 2011-12-24 20:55:05

dimka
Member
Registered: 2010-04-01
Posts: 257

Re: Military areas in Israel (remove or not remove?)

Note that recently some Firing Zones (שטחי אש) have been added in the Golan by the user jakednb.

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#18 2013-05-23 09:42:06

saigon2001
Member
Registered: 2013-05-23
Posts: 2

Re: Military areas in Israel (remove or not remove?)

Wikipod wrote:

Hi everybody!
As some of you noticed, I was responsible for deletion of almost all of the military areas in the map of Israel. I didn't felt good with deleting things that others were working on them, and I feel sorry about it.Wikipod

Hello everybody,

I had my work in oPT deleted twice by user Wikipod. Pls, can anybody quote legal references to justify such deletion activity? It should be promptly inserted in OSM wiki, to avoid wasting users time.

tnx

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#19 2013-05-23 10:12:22

valleyofdawn
Member
Registered: 2010-11-14
Posts: 221

Re: Military areas in Israel (remove or not remove?)

It should be safe to assume that firing zones appearing on the official GovMap are safe to depict (without copying) in OSM. Revealing the location of other military bases may be illegal for Israeli citizens, although most are indicated by signs on the ground.

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#20 2013-05-23 19:38:33

zstadler
Member
Registered: 2012-05-05
Posts: 341
Website

Re: Military areas in Israel (remove or not remove?)

saigon2001 wrote:
Wikipod wrote:

Hi everybody!
As some of you noticed, I was responsible for deletion of almost all of the military areas in the map of Israel. I didn't felt good with deleting things that others were working on them, and I feel sorry about it.Wikipod

Hello everybody,

I had my work in oPT deleted twice by user Wikipod. Pls, can anybody quote legal references to justify such deletion activity? It should be promptly inserted in OSM wiki, to avoid wasting users time.

tnx

My work was also deleted by Wikipod. I would like to avoid a dispute or an edit war, as this behavior is considered to be a form of Vandalism. Yet no one, including Wikipod, has provided any justification, in either OSM policy or Israeli law, for such actions.

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#21 2013-05-23 21:20:13

Mr_Israel
Moderator
From: Israel, Germany
Registered: 2009-03-02
Posts: 513

Re: Military areas in Israel (remove or not remove?)

Folks,

I think we should keep things separated:

1. Communication

Deleting anything without informing the other person or letting him first know about a "mistake" is done should never happen.
In this case we should ask Wikipod to improve communication ;-)


2. Military areas
As all of us know of the security problems we have, I would ask to keep the rule up: "No military elements in OSM Israel"
Beside, that its may not allowed by Israeli law, we should try not to tag things that could harm ourself like bunkers, bases etc.

No matter if the data is available at govmap,  gmaps, waze etc. we can have our own rules.

We decided together back in those days that we don't want to map military elements and that those things should be deleted.
If we now decide differently Wikipod will probably not delete anymore. So don't blame him only.


OSM is a community project.

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#22 2013-05-23 22:36:27

valleyofdawn
Member
Registered: 2010-11-14
Posts: 221

Re: Military areas in Israel (remove or not remove?)

I certainly think firing zones should be included. Entering those without prior authorization is dangerous to hikers, bikers and off-road drivers. This is publicly available info on official unclassified government maps and there is no reason in the world to suppress it. Let's bring this up for a vote.
Military bases are a different subject and should remain off the map.

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#23 2013-05-24 06:26:59

persona1
Member
Registered: 2013-05-14
Posts: 13

Re: Military areas in Israel (remove or not remove?)

Do you guys realize how many and how large the areas designated as “firing zone” are in Israel ?
I'm holding a 250,000 aviation (south cvfr) map right now, and I can tell you that most of the Negev is one big firing zone. In maps of this scale and purpose I can understand the importance of such markings, but for a TOPO maps ?! With all due respect to tracks, paths etc', navigation is based on topography before anything else. Rendering vast areas as firing zones will only make the map much less readable and will become worse as more details are added.

Besides, if it's a safety issue, I don't know of a firing zone that don't have warning signs and every off road track being published – be it on the internet or books – tells you whether the suggested route is going through a firing zone or not. 

So, my vote is NO...EXCEPT maybe ...there are several military \ classified areas that are closed to the public regardless of what day of the week it is.
Than again, such places are always surrounded by fences' walls and what not, so even that may be unnecessary .

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#24 2013-05-24 07:54:46

valleyofdawn
Member
Registered: 2010-11-14
Posts: 221

Re: Military areas in Israel (remove or not remove?)

You keep referring to OSM data as if it is identical to the Israel Hiking Map or collected for this sole purpose. If firing zones are depicted or not, and how invasive the marking on the map is, are questions that should be answered by the specific rendering. If Zeev and Harel so choose it can be disregarded altogether or marked with a thin red line surrounding the area; a line that won't interfere with navigation at all. Please note that the Samash map from the Nature Preservation Society also shows firing zones (in light pink).

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#25 2013-05-24 08:13:11

persona1
Member
Registered: 2013-05-14
Posts: 13

Re: Military areas in Israel (remove or not remove?)

Apologies, you're right hmm, I keep mixing up the two maps. Perhaps we need a sub-forum for the IHM ? Just a thought.
Anyway, I still believe it's an unnecessary addition,  especially in the way it is rendered at the moment.

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