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#1 2009-06-12 21:05:03

Sasha Petrov
Member
Registered: 2009-06-12
Posts: 4

Pravila za mapiranje na Makedonija

This should be useful for everyone who is involved in mapping Macedonia. I'm starting this topic to establish guidelines which all of us should follow in order to make the map more consistent and useful. Especially when used through http://openrouteservice.org/ . It must be clear that Cyrillic is not implemented in their search functions, so you can never find anything in Bulgaria or in Macedonia which doesn't incorporate latin alphabet in the "name" tag. Other name tags are not searched as "name:mk or name:en"

Ova bi trebalo da bide mnogu bitna tema na koja treba da se dogovorime za zakonitostite sto treba da si gi postavime vo mapiranjeto na Makedonija. I pokraj toa sto sme malku nekako sekoj si tera na svoja strana, posebno vo odnos na upotreba na kirilicata. Bugarite na primer se dosta konzistentni, isto vazi i za Grcija, Izrael i.t.n. No tamu prevladal nacionalizmot. Da ne dozvolime nas da ni se sluci istoto. Da ne zaboravime deka mapata treba da e univerzalno korisna a ne samo na edna grupa na lugje. Sekoj treba da ja proba http://openrouteservice.org/ stranicata. Kirilicata ne e zemena vo obzir i zatoa nemoze nisto da se najde sto e napisano isklucivo na kirilica.

1. The "name" tag should always contain the original name written on latin followed by cyrillic name in brackets ex. Bul. Partizanski Odredi (Бул. Партизански Одреди)

2. The name should correspond as much as possible as the name pronounced on macedonian language. ex. ul Vlashka (ул. Влашка)

3. The pronunciation of macedonian letters: Ш, Ѓ, Ж, Ќ, Ч, Љ, Њ, should correspond to adequate letters in English language ex. Ш - SH, but NOT as in French (Ш - CH) or German (Ш - SCH)

4. Whenever there are explicit names for features as "Arhitektonski Fakultet" it should be translated in English followed by macedonian name in brackets ex "Faculty of Architecture (Архитектонски факултет или Факултет за Архитектура)"

5. The importance of roads in Macedonia correspond the pictures of the Features section in OSM. Concerning the smaller towns: main roads entering and leaving the town should be "primary" or "secondary" depending from the town. Roads connecting small villages or suburbs around the town should be generally "tertiary" and all the roads in the town which are not leaving the town "residential" For everything out of these categories look for examples in Skopje or other similar towns.


Se nadevam deka i site makedonci ke gi razberat ovie 5 stavki, ako ne pobarajte mi da gi prevedam. Na "openrouteservice.org" najdov mnogu nepovrzani ulici, gresno postaveni ednonasocni ulici pa dosta popravav vo posledno vreme glavno vo Skopje. Vi preporacuvam da sekoj vo svojot sektor go isproba prakticno toa sto go napravil da bide siguren deka navigacijata ke mu funkcionira.
Postavuvajte gi ovde site nejasni raboti.

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#2 2009-06-12 21:33:47

Blagadusha
Member
Registered: 2009-06-07
Posts: 13

Re: Pravila za mapiranje na Makedonija

Temata e odlicna i mislam deka, za pocetok, od golema vaznost e da se znaat barem osnovnite pravila za mapiranje na Makedonija. Celosno se soglasuvam so Sasha deka, iako sme malkumina, nekako sekoj si poagja od nekoi sopstveni, dosta proizvolni kriteriumi za klasifikacijata na patistata: primary, secondary, tertiary, residential itn. Za toa mora da postoi konsenzus, odnosno, da se primenuvaat isti kriteriumi od strana na site OSM maperi.

Za site otvoreni prasanja potrebna e dobra koordinacija sto bi mozela da se ostvaruva tokmu ovde. Taa koordinacija ne e tesko da se vospostavi, vo tolku poveke sto brojot na aktivnite OSM maperi vo Makedonija zasega seuste e mosne mal.

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#3 2009-06-13 10:10:35

Enif
Member
Registered: 2009-05-08
Posts: 25

Re: Pravila za mapiranje na Makedonija

Hello Sasha!

Good to see you bring up the discussion about names.  There are so many possibilities that it is really necessary to find a consensus for this.

As for your remark that openrouteservice.org will not recognize Cyrillic letters, this seems to have changed now.  I still don't understand exactly how the mechanism works, but when I can't find certain places, it seems not to be dependent on the alphabet used.  So openrouteservice.org does recognize cyrillic as well as macedonian special latin characters (šž?), e.g. it finds the following places correctly:
?????????, ??
Žitoše, Macedonia
Bu?in, MK
??????, ??

Personally, (even though it looks that the Greeks do it this way, too) I do not like very much using double names like "Makedonski Brod (?????????? ????)".  They tend to be very long on the small portable GPS displays and also are likely to confuse some of the software and searching engines because they contain a mixture of alphabets.  The idea of having separate name tags like name, name:mk, name:en and int_name is  IMHO exactly to avoid having to pack several versions of the same name into a single field.  When using e.g. mkgmap to create Garmin maps from OSM, you can specify with the option --name-tag-list to specify in which order the name tags are searched, so here the double names prevent me from priotitizing names in one or the other alphabet.

So for me, I could also see using the name tags e.g. according one of the following schemes:

Scheme 1:
name=Kruševo              (latin letters with macedonian accents)
name:mk=???????       (cyrillic letters)
name:en=Krushevo        (latin letters with english transliteration)

Scheme 2:
name=???????             (cyrillic letters)
int_name=Kruševo         (latin letters with macedonian accents)
name:en=Krushevo        (latin letters with english transliteration)

Finally, I think we should not be too much concerned about the current feature of one or the other software or website, since they will evolve and improve, so for me, it would be more important to use a scheme which is the most logical in the long run.

Finally, sorry for mixing in here (and for not writing in macedonian), it is of course clear to me that the decision should be reached by the macedonian users, not the foreigners ;-) But I hope you don't mind me adding my 2 cents worth here ...

So, I'll keep my ?????? ready and look forward for the continuation of this discussion.  Cheers, Heinz

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#4 2009-06-14 22:51:12

Sasha Petrov
Member
Registered: 2009-06-12
Posts: 4

Re: Pravila za mapiranje na Makedonija

Hi Enif

Thank you for your suggestions. But it's very strange when you say that you succeed in finding places in Cyrillic. I tried openrouteservice.org and no matter if I write in latin or cirillic, stil Gevgelija is not found, Prilep is not found, neither Krushevo nor Gostivar, as well as many other places written in with "name" in Cirillics. It returns: No Results for Europe ... Please check your entry! But I think I know why sometimes it works for some cities written in cirillic: Because actually they were previously written in latin and then someone changed it on cirillic but on some level on the map the latin name still exists.

I have to correct you for something: Accented latin letters like Š Ž ? ? ? are not macedonian at all and we should not use them, the only regular by law accepted macedonian letters in use are: ? ? ? ? ?. Cirillic alphabet with these specific letters is the only alphabet by law in Macedonia.
If we use latin in this map it is only for making it readable by the most of the people on earth. So accented latin letters not only that are not macedonian but they are not contributing to the purpose because they are not recognized properly by the international community so it is even more confusing.

I accept the fact that having both names (latin and cyrillic) in the "name" tag can be long, hard to read, especially for smaller streets on smaller screens. So in my opinion:
-"name" tag - latin
-"name:mk" - cyrillic
adding more name tags as "int_name" takes time and I believe nobody uses it practically for streets or else, except for town names.

I would like to know if the compatible devices as Garmin can input cyrillic letters for search and navigation? And does it find cyrilics. Please, test your device not on town names but on cyrillic streets in Bulgaria for ex. end tell us. I still haven't decided which one to buy, eather Oregon types or Nuvi? I would like to have your experience in this subject.

Macedonia continues to struggle for international acceptance, for me it is imperative to have latin town names so that as many people as possible can get to know and recognize macedonian cities like Ohrid or Skopje. OSM users like "Mafeu" who change the names in cyrillic only, (not doing anything else) making them unrecognizable for international community, are working against the best interests of Macedonia.

Sasha

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#5 2009-06-15 18:03:48

Mafeu
Member
From: Bremen, Germany
Registered: 2009-06-04
Posts: 14

Re: Pravila za mapiranje na Makedonija

Dear all,

as I already said in my post to the Welcome-thread, I'm very happy to see Macedonian mapping activities to somewhat kick off.

First a Thank you to Sasha for formulating the rule set and putting it up for discussion here.
So, let me quote some paragraphs from the previous posts in this thread and add my comments.

Sasha Petrov wrote:

Especially when used through http://openrouteservice.org/ . It must be clear that Cyrillic is not implemented in their search functions, so you can never find anything in Bulgaria or in Macedonia which doesn't incorporate latin alphabet in the "name" tag.

I didn't know that. In the days of unicode this is really sad. However, I don't know that should affect the way we are tagging names in OSM.

Sasha Petrov wrote:

1. The "name" tag should always contain the original name written on latin followed by cyrillic name in brackets ex. Bul. Partizanski Odredi (???. ??????????? ??????)

Hmm, Macedonian is the official language of Macedonia, and Cyrillic is the official script. OSM conses is to use the local name for the "name=" tag.
So my question is, if we go for adding names in latin script, why is the Cyrillic name in brackets and not latin? So my proposal is, if we agree on a double naming, put the Cyrillic name first and then the latin name in brackets.

Sasha Petrov wrote:

2. The name should correspond as much as possible as the name pronounced on macedonian language. ex. ul Vlashka (??. ??????)

3. The pronunciation of macedonian letters: ?, ?, ?, ?, ?, ?, ?, should correspond to adequate letters in English language ex. ? - SH, but NOT as in French (? - CH) or German (? - SCH)

I might feed prejudices on Germans here smile but: there is an international standard covering transliterations! Check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_9 . The one you are referring to above is GOST 7.79 System B mapping one Cyrillic character to several Latin characters without using diacritics.
I don't know which transliteration is standard in MK, but I just recently found out that my mother-in-law's last name, which  used to be spelled with a ? for the ? in her old passport is now spelled with a k in her new passport. So something might have changed.
However, I guess the most common system to transliterate Cyrillic in Macedonia is the system using diacritics. Is there any good reason not to use transliteration with diacritics when tagging names?
Anybody interested in pronouncing the name correctly can find out very easily what the diacritics mean and while sh for ? might still be logical for someone speaking English, a cz for a ? and a dh for a ? are not so straight forward anymore.

Sasha Petrov wrote:

4. Whenever there are explicit names for features as "Arhitektonski Fakultet" it should be translated in English followed by macedonian name in brackets ex "Faculty of Architecture (????????????? ???????? ??? ???????? ?? ???????????)"

Same question as for 1.

Sasha Petrov wrote:

5. The importance of roads in Macedonia correspond the pictures of the Features section in OSM. Concerning the smaller towns: main roads entering and leaving the town should be "primary" or "secondary" depending from the town. Roads connecting small villages or suburbs around the town should be generally "tertiary" and all the roads in the town which are not leaving the town "residential" For everything out of these categories look for examples in Skopje or other similar towns.

http://roads.org.mk/ might help on roads in MK. They have a ????????? ?????? ?? ???? ??????????? ? ?????????? ??????? on their website. Maybe some info from these tables could be transfered to the wiki (don't know about the copyright and which procedures would be allowed).

Enif wrote:

Personally, (even though it looks that the Greeks do it this way, too) I do not like very much using double names like "Makedonski Brod (?????????? ????)".  They tend to be very long on the small portable GPS displays and also are likely to confuse some of the software and searching engines because they contain a mixture of alphabets.

Actually, I agree with Heinz here.

Enif wrote:

Scheme 2:
name=???????             (cyrillic letters)
int_name=Kruševo         (latin letters with macedonian accents)
name:en=Krushevo        (latin letters with english transliteration)

This is the format I was recently changing the name tags for Skopje and all towns above 10.000 inhabitants to. But let's find a consensus first.

Enif wrote:

Finally, I think we should not be too much concerned about the current feature of one or the other software or website, since they will evolve and improve, so for me, it would be more important to use a scheme which is the most logical in the long run.

I fully agree. Actually, there already is consensus in OSM on how to tag names, as I mentioned above. I acknowledge that readability for users not capable of reading cyrillic is close to 0, but the renderers are to blame for that and not the OSM database.

Sasha Petrov wrote:

Macedonia continues to struggle for international acceptance, for me it is imperative to have latin town names so that as many people as possible can get to know and recognize macedonian cities like Ohrid or Skopje. OSM users like "Mafeu" who change the names in cyrillic only, (not doing anything else) making them unrecognizable for international community, are working against the best interests of Macedonia.

Hm, as said above, I changed the names to the scheme mentioned by Heinz. There's always an int_name key using transliteration according ISO 9:1995.

Sasha Petrov wrote:

I pokraj toa sto sme malku nekako sekoj si tera na svoja strana, posebno vo odnos na upotreba na kirilicata. Bugarite na primer se dosta konzistentni, isto vazi i za Grcija, Izrael i.t.n. No tamu prevladal nacionalizmot. Da ne dozvolime nas da ni se sluci istoto. Da ne zaboravime deka mapata treba da e univerzalno korisna a ne samo na edna grupa na lugje.

I don't think that this has anything to do with nationalism. As said often enough above this is just the agreed way in OSM, so actually the Bulgarians, Greeks and Israelis are doing it right! I agree that the map should be universal, but for that the renderers need to be aware of local languages.

However, If the name issue should really be a problem I could live with adding the latin transciption in brackets behind the Cyrillic name in the "name=" key, even though names can get really really long (just check Heinz's Makedonski Brod example).

Enif wrote:

Finally, sorry for mixing in here (and for not writing in macedonian), it is of course clear to me that the decision should be reached by the macedonian users, not the foreigners ;-) But I hope you don't mind me adding my 2 cents worth here ...

As Sasha said above, the map should be universal. But I guess that should be true to the mapping as well. So everybody having fun in mapping any part of the world should go ahead.

???????,
  Martin

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#6 2009-06-16 09:37:30

Enif
Member
Registered: 2009-05-08
Posts: 25

Re: Pravila za mapiranje na Makedonija

Hello Sasha!

I must have expressed myself wrongly regarding the accented letters like šž?, I agree that they are not macedonian.  Nevertheless they seem to be used "officially" in Mazedonia when writing place names in latin characters (e.g. on traffic signs like this). My preference for using these accented letters instead of the english transliteration is that the accented special characters can easily be transliterated automatically for any program that is restricted to ASCII or utf8 - but vice versa this isn't possible since one cannot distinguish a true "sh" from as transliterated "sh" anymore.

As for the use of cyrillic in openrouteservice.org, here is a screenshot I made.  Note that even in the route instruction the cyrillic "?????? ????".  I agree that it does not find all places and that (for reasons I don't understand) I need to add the country.  But my point here is that cyrillic is -at least in principle- supported.

Regarding cyrillic characters on Garmin units, I have no personal experience. But Garmin is selling a City Navigator Russia which claims to be able to display names in cyrillic - so at least in principle it seems possible (but note that on this page they only list nüvi as compatible devices) .  However, when creating the garmin map from the OSM data, it is very easy to apply any kind of recoding or transiteration to the names, as long as coding is consistent. You also asked about my experience with Garmin devices:  (after my first GPS steps in 1996 with a GPS38 and from 1997 to 2008 with a GPS 12XL) I now use an eTrex Vista HCx and my daughter an eTrex Legend HCx. Besides being quite reasonably priced I find the eTrex series does all I need, is nicely small and portable and (important for me) it uses normal rechargeble AA batteries, so I  can always have some spares with me...

???????, Heinz

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#7 2009-06-23 01:52:58

ivank
Member
Registered: 2009-06-23
Posts: 14

Re: Pravila za mapiranje na Makedonija

Dear All,

In regards to mapping rules for Macedonia, I believe we should split the topics (i.e. naming conventions topic, etc..) and hopefully manage few 'sticky' topics with things that we reach consensus trough discussion, so that new OSM users mapping in Macedonia can have reference.

Regarding Cyrillic usage, my opinion is that we should primarily use Cyrillic for the 'name' tag.  However, I fully understand Sasha and agree that map should be usable to foreigners and we should always have that in mid also! I think we should avoid using brackets and 'overload' single attribute. i.e. name='Скопје (Skopje)' which is somehow compromise but not the best one.

Now, regarding multiple tags, we should make clear difference what goes in which tag (i.e. int_name or name:en). IMHO, int_name should be pure transliteration, while 'name:en' should English representation of the same (i.e. boulevard xxx instead of just 'bulevar xxx' transliteration), where it makes sense. Regarding ascended letters, they should clearly be avoided for transliteration Macedonian toponyms. Enif mentioned ground signs using this letters but one has to understand that for long time in MK, Serbo/Croatian language was also official language and many of those signs remain from that time (because nobody changed them). Regardless, ascended letters should not be used for Macedonian names even if we deviate for this specific case from 'reality on the ground'. For the minorities in Macedonia, if the name of the place in native alphabet uses ascended (Serbian, Albanian, etc...) letters, they should be put into respective 'name:xx' tag, not int the 'int_name', 'name:en', etc.. If the primary minority is localy majority in that place, than the 'name' tag could use that alphabet/name and than we should add 'name:mk' in Cyrillic.

However, those and few others (cyrilic search, etc...) are technical problems that will be solved, sooner or later. I am sure you are aware that map as whole is not quite fully routable yet, even if you use more recent version that one on openrouteservice.org. I spent a lot of time these days connecting 'loose' roads, reversed oneways, misaligned roads vs GPS traces, etc.. to make macedonian part routable but we cant fix all problems in the neighborhood (i.e. Greece is full with routing problems). Again, problems that will (hopefully) be solved in time. We are not the only one in the region or wider (think Russia, China) and OSM encourages using native alphabet in naming of toponyms/streets etc.. I am pretty sure that solutions will be developed for viewing the map with transliteration, different name:xx tag preference, etc... All the countries in the region have the simmilar issues (Greece, Bulgaria, etc..). For our part, i think we should use our native language/alphabet in the primary name tag as slippy map will be about only place where this will be used exclusively.

Another reason is that tecnicaly easy to transliterate from cyrlics to latin and not fully possible in reverse as there are exceptions  (i.e. 'Biljana' is not 'Биљана'). Theoretically, it can be automated that computer runs periodically trough macedonian OSM data and adds int_name tag whree it is missing. Again, as Enif pointed for mkgmap (--name-tag-list) it will be possible to select 'view' of the map. As side note, mkgmap has a bug at the moment that if you let it do transliteration it will produce Garmin map will lower-case letters (instead of capitalizing everything), which again is not usable on some Garmin devices. Again, tecnical problem, technically solvable. We should agree here on more basic principles.

So my proposal is:
name = Cyrillic for macedonian toponyms
int_name = transliteration (not accendend letters, only pure 'English' alphabet)
name:en = translation to English where it make sense, otherwise leave it out as int_name should cover it
name:xx = translation to specific language (i.e. name:de Mazedonien for the border, etc...)

Garmin devices are currently most popular devices that can use OSM data, but be very sure that as the map grows, there will be soon devices that can take native OSM data. And these devices will have to able to accept different alphabets, etc...

If OSM is open as it should be, than we should be able to add name:mk tags for some neighboring places (i.e. Солун, Белград, etc...), so that when we generate macedonian view of the map, we can see them as such.

Besides naming issue, there other topics to discuss in regards to mapping rules. What is primary road, secondary road, etc... Streets (residential, living_street), city/suburb/municipality admin borders, should we and how to add maxspeed tags to all key street so that routing is more or less correct from local knowledge, etc... These should be more straight forward to reach consensus so for start I suggest we start diffrent topics for diferent subject.

Sorry for long read if you made it this far.

Поздрав,
Иван

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#8 2009-07-09 22:48:29

Blagadusha
Member
Registered: 2009-06-07
Posts: 13

Re: Pravila za mapiranje na Makedonija

Dear participants,

It past a longer time since we have not new posts on this topic, but itÂ’s evident that this theme makes some interest among a bigger number of OSM users, which is visible from the number of views. Even though the number of active participants is small, in my opinion, however, there are some quite productive contributions. Certainly, itÂ’s not so easy to find out the best answers to some “delicate” and very sensitive linguistic issues such is the compatibility of the Macedonian Cyrillic and Macedonian (or not Macedonian?!) Latin letters to the international IT progress which took a global dimension.  Expecting for new posts on this topic, in the meantime I spent a lot of time exploring different sours, rules and documents related to this issue.

First of all, IÂ’m perfectly aware that the Cyrillic is our cultural heritage which we have to keep with respect, but, from the other side, the achievements in the IT development and contemporary international communications become a global, worldÂ’s heritage, so that we have to make some steps to “update” our stage to the common international circumstances, if we want to be an active part in that developed world. ItÂ’s clear that, besides the official Macedonian Cyrillic, on the international level we have to use Latin alternative script too. Related to this, there are many questions: whether the Latin characters like ? Š ÂŽ are Macedonian or not? Is it suitable to use the diacritics or not? What transliteration to use for the geographical names in cartography etc. Even though that some of these questions has different aspects - linguistic, technical, pragmatic or by the low and international rules, they overlaps each other making a complex subject. Therefore itÂ’s not for wondering why is so difficult to find out the right answers. Probably we will be even more confused if we read the article “???? ?? ?? ?????????? ??????????” http://www.globusmagazin.com.mk/?ItemID … 5C8EB91A2E  , or the article “??? ????? – ???? ????? ???????? – ????????” http://www.dnevnik.com.mk/?itemID=9EFCF … 2224&arc=1
   
Similar like Sasha Petrov, personally for me somehow is more reasonable and easier to use “sh” instead “š”, “ch” instead “?“ etc. For instant, my OSM username previously was “Blagaduša” (obeyed to the official Macedonian Orthography). But, after my bad experience with difficult procedures entering the special character š on every my login on OSM, I decided to change my personal settings, and that’s why my username now is Blagadusha. Certainly, this personal attitude in the case with my username results from practical reasons, but, however, when we have to decide how we will behave in the naming of the Macedonian places, we should not start from our different and particular understanding based on the personal experience. Namely, if the OSM map which we build together is an official map, we should to take in view the official rules. Here is what’s about our official rules:

It’s true that in the Law for use of Macedonian standard language it’s clear written that “in Republic of Macedonia the official language is Macedonian language with its Cyrillic letters”. But, this rule on an implicit way actually means that we have to use the official Macedonian grammar and orthography. Once when we are here, it worth to underline that in the Orthography of the Macedonian standard language (???????? ?? ???????????? ??????????? ?????) from a group of authors: Božidar Vidoeski, Todor Dimitrovski, Kiril Koneski and Radmila Ugrinova-Skalovska, issued from “Prosvetno Delo” – Skopje, 2005, on the page 112, Chapter VIII “????????? ?? ???????????? ????? ?? ????????”, as rule No. 294, we have quite clear explanation how to use the Latin letters in Macedonian language, where we have:

?, ?– ?, ? (not ?, ? like in Serbian and Croatian)
?, ? – Ž, ž,
?, ?– Dz, dz,
? – Lj, lj or ?, ?,
? – Nj, nj, or ?, ?
For ?, ? – ?, ? (not ?, ? like in Serbian and Croatian),
?, ? – ?, ?,
?, ? – Dž, dž,
?, ? – Š, š.

Additionally, in this rule (294) of the Macedonian Orthography it’s given a few other “sub-rules” too, which tells us that we may use: for ????? – Gjorgji (instead ?or?i), ???? – Gjoko (instead ?oko) etc. The last improved edition of this Orthography by the same authors in redaction of Todor Dimitrovski, is from 2007 year! That is the official Macedonian Orthography which is on power at the moment.

Besides the rule 294 in our official orthography, certainly, we should take in view the official documents of the United Nations too. For instant, we should take in view the document No. E/CONF.94/CRP.81 “Report on the current status of the United Nations Romanization systems for geographical names” (Eighth United Nations Conference on the Standardization of Geographical Names – Berlin, 27 August – 5 September 2002), in which, on the page 35 we can find the part related to the Romanization of Macedonian Cyrillic. As for this UN document which, by the way, is approved with participation of Macedonian official representatives too on expert’s level, everyone can check here:
http://unstats.un.org/unsd/geoinfo/N0244990.pdf

I perfectly understand and respect the SashaÂ’s and IvanÂ’s endeavour for avoiding of the accentuated letters because that endeavours are simply from practical reasons. But, regarding the rules mentioned above, in my opinion Sasha and Ivan are not right when say that the Latin letters as ? Š ÂŽ are not Macedonian, afterwards, that this is a situation which remains to be still under the Serbo-Croatian influence from the former times etc. In contrary, it turns out that Heinz (Enif) is right giving the link to ÂŽitoše as a strong proof that the Latin letters with their Macedonian diacritics (different accents) are in a regular and quite normal use on the traffic signs in Macedonia. And thatÂ’s not all! I will give you another one example:  Macedonian registration plates on the cars.  For instant, for Skopje we have SK, for Bitola – BT, but for Shtip is ŠT (ex. ŠT-156-TI) etc. ItÂ’s quite sure that this is not accidental thing!  Why nobody changed them – the traffic signs and the matriculation plates?! IÂ’m asking my self: How to change them without any official procedure? Certainly, they will be changed immediately if some appropriate and competent state institution previously changes the rule No. 294 in Macedonian Orthography, as well as the rules in the international UN documents related to standardization of the languages in the part of Romanization of Macedonian Cyrillic, but that is not a case until this moment. ThatÂ’s why I prefer an approach writing Kruševo instead Krushevo or Krusevo, ÂŽitoše instead Zhitoshe or Zitose etc., even though this way is more difficult for everyone who use a standard keyboard.

My only dilemma is - whether all search machines will recognize the symbols like ?  š  ž Â… (I checked on http://openrouteservice.org/ it works successfully using c s z  instead ?  š  ž Â…), and, how to solve the technical problem with entering of this symbols, because the standard keyboards are not configured to support this kind of letters directly. Probably these technical problems are the main reason that Sasha and Ivan insist to be avoided the accented Latin letters.

If we approve a solution in which would be avoided the accentuated characters, I will change immediately all my edits and tags which contains letters like ?  š  ž. But, IÂ’m not sure that we are authorized to establish new rules which would be different in comparison with the existing official rules in this sphere. I would appreciate very much if in the meantime we have a post on this forum from somebody who is quite competent on this topic. I know some people from Ss Cyril and Methodius University – Skopje – Faculty of Mathematics and Natural Sciences – Institute of Geography, who participate actively on the UNGEGN conferences (United Nations Experts Group on Geographical Names). It would be very usefully to have an explanation from an official place – from a competent person or institution.

As you probably note, in this post I am exposing my personal opinion especially related to dilemmas – to use or not to use the Latin letters with diacritics. In the other aspects in general and mostly I agree with all of you.

Also, I support the IvanÂ’s idea that we should split the topics because like that certainly will be easier to proceed the discussion on a better way. 

Sorry for too long elaboration.
   

???????,
??????? ?????????

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#9 2009-07-12 11:15:01

ivank
Member
Registered: 2009-06-23
Posts: 14

Re: Pravila za mapiranje na Makedonija

In light of Blagodusha's arguments, I must say I should stand corrected and accept that ascended letters (as detailed in his post) is the correct way to perform romanization (or transliteration) of Macedonian toponyms. There will be some technical difficulties of actually writing some of the characters (i.e. ģ and ḱ), but again, technical difficulties should be overcome as long as we agree on the principles.

Therefore, let me adjust the my proposal with Blogdusha's arguments:

name = Cyrillic for Macedonian toponyms
int_name = transliteration (according Blagodusha's post), including ascended character where appropriate.
name:en = Engilsh name/translation (where it make sense) or transcription using only English language characters (i.e. ASCII, no ascended letters)
name:xx = translation to specific language (i.e. name:de Mazedonien for the border, etc...)

Also, we should stick as much as possible to 'reallity on the ground' princple, i.e. as much as possible put the ground labeling (as observed) for a place in the name tag. This principle, if we stick to it, will serve us well if we get to a dispute about some naming issues with some our neighbors.

If we agree on the above, we can put this into separate post and ask forum admins to make it 'sticky' as a correct way of naming of streets and/or toponyms on тхе Macedonian part of the map.

Благоја, благодарам за исрпноте и аргументирани факти.

Поздрав,
Иван

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#10 2009-07-15 06:05:58

Enif
Member
Registered: 2009-05-08
Posts: 25

Re: Pravila za mapiranje na Makedonija

I fully agree with Ivan's new proposal.

Поздрав, Heinz

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#11 2009-07-15 19:09:07

Mafeu
Member
From: Bremen, Germany
Registered: 2009-06-04
Posts: 14

Re: Pravila za mapiranje na Makedonija

I also agree with Ivan's proposal.

Поздрав,
   Martin

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#12 2009-07-15 21:27:39

Blagadusha
Member
Registered: 2009-06-07
Posts: 13

Re: Pravila za mapiranje na Makedonija

Me too, I agree with Ivan's new proposal.

Поздрав,
Благадуша

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#13 2009-07-16 15:37:37

Mafeu
Member
From: Bremen, Germany
Registered: 2009-06-04
Posts: 14

Re: Pravila za mapiranje na Makedonija

Since there seems to be a lot of agreement I put the new naming convention to the wiki page http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Wiki … _Macedonia .

Feel free to edit the page!

Поздрав,
  Мартин

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#14 2009-11-11 22:07:58

Sasha Petrov
Member
Registered: 2009-06-12
Posts: 4

Re: Pravila za mapiranje na Makedonija

Me nemase podolgo vreme zatoa sto izgubiv verba vo proekt na mapa sto moze sekoj da ja modificira. No sepak, prodolziv da doprinesuvam kolku sto vremeto mi dozvoluva. Kupiv Garmin  Nuvi 765 za da gi vidam rabotite kako stojat prakticno. Od pocetokot izgledase nadezno... Ne sakav voppsto da navleguvam vo izgotvuvanje na mapi za Garmin tuku se zadovoliv so gotovite mapi od nekolku sajtovi kako garmin.na1400 ili od ruskiot sajt blagodarenie na Goran. Ako osnovnata cel na eden GPS ured e da se pronajde odredena adresa ili POI togas cela nasa rabota tuka e promasena. Mapata na ruskiot sajt ispisuva kirilica no ne naogja kirilica, drugata samo prasalnici na mesto na kirilica ako go nema adekvatniot latinicen naziv. Do tuka stoi dogovorot deka mora da postoi i kirilicno i latinicno pismo za istoto ime, za uredot da mu odgovara i na francus i na makedonec. I koga veke pomisliv deka mozebi na kraj i ke bide upotreblivo seto toa naednas ke se pojavi nekoj kreten kako BJANKULOVSKI sto gi izbrisal site latinicni iminja i ja ostavil samo kirilicata vo celo Skopje za da ne sluzi za nisto. Toj sigurno e ubeden deka mnogu doprinel za Makedonija no jas ne sum toj sto ke krsi kopja za vaka ili onaka kako pred nekoj mesec so ivank. I sigurno nema da bidam jas toj sto na sekoja ulica ke dodade name:en za posle nekoj drug kreten pak da go izbrise toa. Izgleda rabotite ke tecat stihijno i uste dolgo OSM ke bide mapa na internet sto ubavo izgleda na kirilica a neupotrebliva mapa za navigacija, posebno ne za nekoj stranec sto se obiduva da si go najde patot vo MK. Na kraj si davam samo edno objasnuvanje: mora odgovorot da e vo nepismenosta na makedonskiot narod i faktot deka ne procenija kako narod so podprosecna inteligencija za da izgradi drzava pred 15 godini pa sto ne izbrisaa od site mapi. Ocigledno deka sami nemozeme da se stavime.

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