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#101 2009-04-12 17:32:07

dyonysos99
Member
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 1

Re: Worldwide routable Garmin maps: http://garmin.openstreetmap.nl

Good job Lambertus, it's a very nice initiative and great alternative for maps!!!

I've been reading a lot of posts and I also tested some maps from http://garmin.na1400.info/routable.php during the last few weeks.  I red that the routable maps are working now and that the feature of searching by address is supposed to work also. I tested that on my Nuvi 650 and the map is displayed on my unit very well.

The problem is that it's impossible to search by address, although I can search by city. I have a North American Nuvi (US+Canada) and I have tried with the map tile from Rome, Italy. When I try searching an address in Rome, the Nuvi asks me to enter a State (from the US) so it is impossible to start searching.

I did not have that problem with the free maps from Argentina developped with a similar concept as OSM (www.proyectomapear.com.ar). In that case, the Nuvi was asking in what country I was and Argentina appeared as a choice for address search. I don't know if they included an extra feature in their maps.

Is searching by addresses something that will be developped in the future or is there something I have done wrong? (I did the installation trough MapSource with the .exe file and I also tried to disable my North American maps on the unit but wihout success)

Let me know if you have a solution for that, on my part I will try other options and let you know if I find a way to make it work.

Thanks and keep the good work!

Last edited by dyonysos99 (2009-04-12 17:33:17)


Garmin Nuvi 650

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#102 2009-04-12 18:51:40

Lambertus
Administrator
From: Apeldoorn (NL)
Registered: 2007-03-17
Posts: 3,269
Website

Re: Worldwide routable Garmin maps: http://garmin.openstreetmap.nl

WanMil wrote:

Today I noticed that phone cells are visible in a quite low resolution on my Garmin Oregon in which I don't expect POIs to be displayed. I think that's a mistake? Can you please check this?

And one more: Roundabouts are rendered with a higher level than usual streets, e.g. the roundabout and connected streets are highway=unclassified. The streets are rendered grey whereas the roundabout is orange.

Both items are really things that should be fixed in the stylesheet of Mkgmap.

pberck wrote:

Are the roadtrip versions working for everybody? I submitted a request yesterday, the MapSource and gmapsupp versions are approx. 280 MB, and the Roadtrip version is only 87 MB. It seems to contain only one of the tiles...

They should be functional and mostly the size of the RoadTrip installer is about equal to the other files.

One reason why yours doesn't might be because the server disk was temporary full. It's a constant struggle to keep enough space available for every service that's running on it. The Garmin maps are in high demand but require a lot of disk space. A cleanup script is running but might not be able to keep enough space available.

Can you post the download URL so I can check it out?

dyonysos99 wrote:

I've been reading a lot of posts and I also tested some maps from http://garmin.na1400.info/routable.php during the last few weeks.  I red that the routable maps are working now and that the feature of searching by address is supposed to work also. I tested that on my Nuvi 650 and the map is displayed on my unit very well.

The problem is that it's impossible to search by address, although I can search by city. I have a North American Nuvi (US+Canada) and I have tried with the map tile from Rome, Italy. When I try searching an address in Rome, the Nuvi asks me to enter a State (from the US) so it is impossible to start searching.

Have you seen this post and tried the suggested solution in there?

I did not have that problem with the free maps from Argentina developped with a similar concept as OSM (www.proyectomapear.com.ar). In that case, the Nuvi was asking in what country I was and Argentina appeared as a choice for address search. I don't know if they included an extra feature in their maps.

Mkgmap is an OSM specific Garmin map compiler and must learn the find address function. Some parts of the Garmin map format are publicly known, other parts not. I guess the Argentina map makers have found out how the address search works.

Is searching by addresses something that will be developped in the future or is there something I have done wrong? (I did the installation trough MapSource with the .exe file and I also tried to disable my North American maps on the unit but wihout success).

As said earlier, the address search is a beta feature. It will become better in the future.


Mapping tools: Garmin GPSmap 60CSx, Giant Terrago 2002

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#103 2009-04-12 21:50:02

pberck
Member
Registered: 2008-09-16
Posts: 111

Re: Worldwide routable Garmin maps: http://garmin.openstreetmap.nl

Lambertus wrote:
pberck wrote:

Are the roadtrip versions working for everybody? I submitted a request yesterday, the MapSource and gmapsupp versions are approx. 280 MB, and the Roadtrip version is only 87 MB. It seems to contain only one of the tiles...

They should be functional and mostly the size of the RoadTrip installer is about equal to the other files.

One reason why yours doesn't might be because the server disk was temporary full. It's a constant struggle to keep enough space available for every service that's running on it. The Garmin maps are in high demand but require a lot of disk space. A cleanup script is running but might not be able to keep enough space available.

Can you post the download URL so I can check it out?

No problem: http://planetosm.oxilion.nl/~lambertus/ … 2cb623e403

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#104 2009-04-12 22:48:03

Lambertus
Administrator
From: Apeldoorn (NL)
Registered: 2007-03-17
Posts: 3,269
Website

Re: Worldwide routable Garmin maps: http://garmin.openstreetmap.nl

Well, it looks like the disk wasn't full at the time your request was processed. It could be that the RoadTrip script is a bit too sensitive to errors like missing tiles (You included some missing tiles in your request) and simply gives up. I'll look into that.


Mapping tools: Garmin GPSmap 60CSx, Giant Terrago 2002

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#105 2009-04-13 07:27:21

pberck
Member
Registered: 2008-09-16
Posts: 111

Re: Worldwide routable Garmin maps: http://garmin.openstreetmap.nl

Lambertus wrote:

Well, it looks like the disk wasn't full at the time your request was processed. It could be that the RoadTrip script is a bit too sensitive to errors like missing tiles (You included some missing tiles in your request) and simply gives up. I'll look into that.

Yeah, I saw there were missing tiles, but I decided to try it anyway smile

-peter

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#106 2009-04-14 11:41:23

KaChing_Cacher
Member
Registered: 2008-12-29
Posts: 744

Re: Worldwide routable Garmin maps: http://garmin.openstreetmap.nl

Excellent work, that page!
Already downloaded Germany and put the gmapsupp file on my Vista HCx,
looks fine, the only thing is that the sea has the same color as the land,
only the coastline is blue.

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#107 2009-04-17 08:45:07

stevebiker
Member
Registered: 2009-04-17
Posts: 15

Re: Worldwide routable Garmin maps: http://garmin.openstreetmap.nl

Hi Lambertus,

thank you for your use! Unfortunately, I understand something not.If I download a region, the card is not as current, as shown on the website! Why? Thanks for the information in advance,
Gruß, Stefan

Last edited by stevebiker (2009-04-17 08:45:34)

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#108 2009-04-17 09:02:20

Lambertus
Administrator
From: Apeldoorn (NL)
Registered: 2007-03-17
Posts: 3,269
Website

Re: Worldwide routable Garmin maps: http://garmin.openstreetmap.nl

stevebiker wrote:

Hi Lambertus,

thank you for your use! Unfortunately, I understand something not.If I download a region, the card is not as current, as shown on the website! Why? Thanks for the information in advance,
Gruß, Stefan

The website is updated on a daily basis while these Garmin maps are updated once a week. In a worst case scenario it is possible that a change in the OSM database will be visible on the Garmin map after two weeks.


Mapping tools: Garmin GPSmap 60CSx, Giant Terrago 2002

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#109 2009-04-17 10:34:11

stevebiker
Member
Registered: 2009-04-17
Posts: 15

Re: Worldwide routable Garmin maps: http://garmin.openstreetmap.nl

Thank you for the quick reply. Hm, I have a file on 12.04.09 and the other loaded today. On the website was linked to two days, the current map, as the downloaded file. So it says in 2 weeks to try again?

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#110 2009-04-17 11:32:52

Lambertus
Administrator
From: Apeldoorn (NL)
Registered: 2007-03-17
Posts: 3,269
Website

Re: Worldwide routable Garmin maps: http://garmin.openstreetmap.nl

If you uploaded the change to the OSM database before last wednesday then the change should be in the Garmin maps that will be released next week. If you uploaded after last tuesday then you will have to wait at least a week before the change is visible in the Garmin map.


Mapping tools: Garmin GPSmap 60CSx, Giant Terrago 2002

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#111 2009-04-17 11:46:12

stevebiker
Member
Registered: 2009-04-17
Posts: 15

Re: Worldwide routable Garmin maps: http://garmin.openstreetmap.nl

But the changes (roads, pathways) are shown on the map on the website already exists. Only in the downloaded map, they are absent. But still I wait 2 weeks. Thank you.

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#112 2009-04-18 09:43:47

Sven S_
Member
Registered: 2009-04-18
Posts: 1

Re: Worldwide routable Garmin maps: http://garmin.openstreetmap.nl

Der Findemechanismus für die Garminkarten funktioniert schon, aber beim errechne der Route stürzt mein Edge 705 und GPSMAP60CX ab.
Da muß es einen Fehler geben.

The Findingmechanism for Adresses seems to work, but my Edge705 und GPSMAP60CX is freezing when it calculates the Route to the Adress.
This should be a Bug

Gruß Sven S.

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#113 2009-04-24 07:46:20

endlessjourney
Member
Registered: 2009-04-10
Posts: 2

Re: Worldwide routable Garmin maps: http://garmin.openstreetmap.nl

Concerning the Romanian characters; sorry for the long delay.

Lambertus wrote:
endlessjourney wrote:

Should I compile the maps myself and add certain switches to include font support?

If you are willing to do some tests to find out which parameters are needed for the build process then that would be great!

For the current maps I used the Mkgmap parameters --utf8 and --code-page=1252. These last parameter is apparently needed to get it working on the Garmin Mobile XT. I added the first parameter just to avoid the problems you're encountering....

What works for me is
--xcode-page=1250 --charset=windows-1250
However, another problem arises: there are some cases where the same letter is represented with two different characters from two different encodings: for instance there is s with cedilla in ISO 8859-2 (latin-2 or codepage 1250) and s with comma underneath in ISO 8859-16 (latin-10). And guess what: they are both present on the OSM maps of Romania. I could find a workaround by replacing in a hex editor latin-10 characters with latin-2 (I used the OSM format), and the result looks well on my nüvi 255. Maybe this replacement could be done directly in mkgmap.

And for the maps on your server, maybe it is better in this case to leave mkgmap make the conversion to ASCII, it is easier to read a map where is written "Manastur" instead of "M?n??tur". Can your script do this only for the tiles concerned?

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#114 2009-04-24 08:43:59

Lambertus
Administrator
From: Apeldoorn (NL)
Registered: 2007-03-17
Posts: 3,269
Website

Re: Worldwide routable Garmin maps: http://garmin.openstreetmap.nl

endlessjourney wrote:

Concerning the Romanian characters; sorry for the long delay.

Lambertus wrote:
endlessjourney wrote:

Should I compile the maps myself and add certain switches to include font support?

If you are willing to do some tests to find out which parameters are needed for the build process then that would be great!

For the current maps I used the Mkgmap parameters --utf8 and --code-page=1252. These last parameter is apparently needed to get it working on the Garmin Mobile XT. I added the first parameter just to avoid the problems you're encountering....

What works for me is
--xcode-page=1250 --charset=windows-1250
However, another problem arises: there are some cases where the same letter is represented with two different characters from two different encodings: for instance there is s with cedilla in ISO 8859-2 (latin-2 or codepage 1250) and s with comma underneath in ISO 8859-16 (latin-10). And guess what: they are both present on the OSM maps of Romania. I could find a workaround by replacing in a hex editor latin-10 characters with latin-2 (I used the OSM format), and the result looks well on my nüvi 255. Maybe this replacement could be done directly in mkgmap.

And for the maps on your server, maybe it is better in this case to leave mkgmap make the conversion to ASCII, it is easier to read a map where is written "Manastur" instead of "M?n??tur". Can your script do this only for the tiles concerned?

All those different charsets, they really give me a headache sad So it appears that the correct charset for each Garmin device/software may vary which would make it really difficult to make maps for.

It is possible to specify different mkgmap parameters for each file, but I'm afraid that there is just no single perfect setting for each tile like you describe. Question as I'm not an expert on charsets; would it be possible to enforce a definitive charset in the OSM database? I assume mkgmap is not the only application encountering this problem...

What could be a workaround is to use the mkgmap option to prioritize the name tag so that the 'int_name' value will be chosen over the 'name' value so that the maps become internationally usable, e.g.

--name-tag-list=int_name,name:en,name

Offtopic rant:
What's up with German speaking people's state of mind in general? Every time a really large request is made (like all of Africa and Europe and Asia or the America's or even the whole world) and I check the email address it's bound to be one that ends with .de or .at or .ch. Currently there is even one German requesting the whole world three times but with minor differences. This causes enormous delays for users that also want to download just a few tiles. Are they traveling so often and far to really need all those tiles?

There's a notice on the top of the website for over a week that asks users to restrain themselves, but if this behavior continues then i'll have to implement tilecount limits or take the site down because of excessive bandwidth usage. So again, please download only what you really need...


Mapping tools: Garmin GPSmap 60CSx, Giant Terrago 2002

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#115 2009-04-25 10:28:19

Lambertus
Administrator
From: Apeldoorn (NL)
Registered: 2007-03-17
Posts: 3,269
Website

Re: Worldwide routable Garmin maps: http://garmin.openstreetmap.nl

I had to add a limit on the number of tiles unfortunately, it is really needed if this service is to last any longer. There are so many users requesting e.g. all of Europe, Asia, Oceania and Africa combined that storage is a permanent problem and bandwidth usage is excessive.

I'm really sorry I had to do this but there are simply too many people who are apparently going on a journey around the world.


Mapping tools: Garmin GPSmap 60CSx, Giant Terrago 2002

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#116 2009-04-25 11:52:47

Willem1
Member
From: Limburg
Registered: 2008-11-29
Posts: 92

Re: Worldwide routable Garmin maps: http://garmin.openstreetmap.nl

Is it possible for you then to create a Garmin map of the whole world, which can be downloaded separately?

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#117 2009-04-25 11:58:34

Lambertus
Administrator
From: Apeldoorn (NL)
Registered: 2007-03-17
Posts: 3,269
Website

Re: Worldwide routable Garmin maps: http://garmin.openstreetmap.nl

Willem1 wrote:

Is it possible for you then to create a Garmin map of the whole world, which can be downloaded separately?

In gmapsupp.img format or for MapSource/RoadTrip? Are Garmin GPS devices capable of loading the whole world anyway?


Mapping tools: Garmin GPSmap 60CSx, Giant Terrago 2002

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#118 2009-04-25 12:17:06

rullzer
Member
From: Netherlands
Registered: 2008-07-28
Posts: 165
Website

Re: Worldwide routable Garmin maps: http://garmin.openstreetmap.nl

A more relevant question would be: "Why would you really need the whole world?"

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#119 2009-04-25 14:01:53

Willem1
Member
From: Limburg
Registered: 2008-11-29
Posts: 92

Re: Worldwide routable Garmin maps: http://garmin.openstreetmap.nl

I don't know why someone would need the whole world... but apparently there are people who need it. So, I would suggest to create all files for the whole world, this decreases the server load because it isn't needed to create a new mapset every time. If people request too much tiles then, it is possible to send them to the file of the whole world.

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#120 2009-04-25 16:40:01

Lambertus
Administrator
From: Apeldoorn (NL)
Registered: 2007-03-17
Posts: 3,269
Website

Re: Worldwide routable Garmin maps: http://garmin.openstreetmap.nl

There already was such a simple 'catchall' where every request with more then 70% of the tiles would request all the tiles automatically (thus those requests could be cached). But all of Europe, Asia, Africa and Oceania is only 1/3 of all available tiles (maybe even less) and there are many variants in requesting all those tiles (one tile more or less is a different request) so such a simple optimization is not working for those requests.

An alternative could be to prepare precombined maps of e.g. the continents which I can perfectly do ofcourse, but Rullzer's question intrigues me as well: why do people want such large areas and do I need to cater for those needs?

Another alternative would be to provide a Java webstart application that generates and compiles the Garmin maps on the user' computer instead of the server. The server would only need to host the source osm files and the latest version of the Java application.


Mapping tools: Garmin GPSmap 60CSx, Giant Terrago 2002

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#121 2009-04-27 07:58:26

weolvi
Member
Registered: 2008-12-17
Posts: 26

Re: Worldwide routable Garmin maps: http://garmin.openstreetmap.nl

Lambertus, the main cause is the huge amount of data and the high update rate. As you offer a whole new world every week, it is very tempting to download it especially for those people with a high bandwidth. What's the size of the world? I'd guess it's around 4GB -- that's nothing for a fast DSL connection and a flat rate.

As rullzer said correctly, nobody really needs the whole world. Maybe we see something that goes back to the "good old" Navteq days where new maps were emitted just once a year. "Back then" it perfectly made sense to put all the data onto the satnav and wait until the next update. Garmin now offers new maps every three months -- I wonder how long it takes until people get annoyed because each new map is virtually the same as the previous one.

What can be done about all this? First of all I strongly suggest that you change your update policy from weekly to monthly. The OSM maps are only useful when a region already is mapped quite well, which in turn implies that there aren't too many changes/updates.

Second, I wonder how your script is really working because you suggest a client side map creation that involves downloading osm files. mkgmap can combine several img files to a gmapsupp.img, so you just need precompiled images on the server. The question is, however, whether your server is short on CPU power or on network bandwidth.

Third, the theoretically best approach would be a revision control like that from CVS or subversion. You only have to download tiles that have changed since the last access. I am not sure if this would really be feasible because a single edit (such as a POI) would mark the complete tile as changed.

Last, the most practical solution could be to divide the world into some useful areas like Europe or North America and provide precompiled individual MapSource maps for these. This, along with a limit on the update rate, could reduce both CPU and  bandwidth requirements on the server. At the same time, users could still compile one gmapsupp.img from all the continents using MapSource.

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#122 2009-04-27 08:04:22

mtrax
Member
From: Canberra, Australia
Registered: 2008-05-20
Posts: 103

Re: Worldwide routable Garmin maps: http://garmin.openstreetmap.nl

I was wondering if people want to publish a mirror list for each region to ease the bandwidth for your server
eg is you have common requests for updates based on regions they could download weekly and then people would be directed to local mirror

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#123 2009-04-27 08:56:08

Lambertus
Administrator
From: Apeldoorn (NL)
Registered: 2007-03-17
Posts: 3,269
Website

Re: Worldwide routable Garmin maps: http://garmin.openstreetmap.nl

weolvi wrote:

Lambertus, the main cause is the huge amount of data and the high update rate. As you offer a whole new world every week, it is very tempting to download it especially for those people with a high bandwidth. What's the size of the world? I'd guess it's around 4GB -- that's nothing for a fast DSL connection and a flat rate.

Yeah, that's quite possible.

As rullzer said correctly, nobody really needs the whole world. Maybe we see something that goes back to the "good old" Navteq days where new maps were emitted just once a year. "Back then" it perfectly made sense to put all the data onto the satnav and wait until the next update. Garmin now offers new maps every three months -- I wonder how long it takes until people get annoyed because each new map is virtually the same as the previous one.

What can be done about all this? First of all I strongly suggest that you change your update policy from weekly to monthly. The OSM maps are only useful when a region already is mapped quite well, which in turn implies that there aren't too many changes/updates.

Being able to produce weekly updates for mappers who use the maps to survey their area is one of the strongpoints of this service imho. To me a higher update rate is a big plus. Also there is the competition factor with e.g. Garmin where OSM can say: hey we update our maps every week! tongue

Second, I wonder how your script is really working because you suggest a client side map creation that involves downloading osm files. mkgmap can combine several img files to a gmapsupp.img, so you just need precompiled images on the server.

Tthe server uses precompiled tiles as you describe. The remark about downloading source osm data was just a possible scenario.

The question is, however, whether your server is short on CPU power or on network bandwidth.

CPU power is the problem currently. The server has more tasks to do other then combining and zipping Garmin maps. My hosting sponsor hasn't complained yet about bandwidth usage, but I expect them to do so now that I'm approaching 500GB/month and I want to prevent that if it's not necessary. I must say that Oxilon has been a wonderful sponsor and I wouldn't like to become a burden to them!

Third, the theoretically best approach would be a revision control like that from CVS or subversion. You only have to download tiles that have changed since the last access. I am not sure if this would really be feasible because a single edit (such as a POI) would mark the complete tile as changed.

Yes, if the tiles would be managed by some client side application then this would be an option. But the tiles are so big that there is not much chance of significant amounts of tiles that don't change between updates.

Last, the most practical solution could be to divide the world into some useful areas like Europe or North America and provide precompiled individual MapSource maps for these. This, along with a limit on the update rate, could reduce both CPU and  bandwidth requirements on the server. At the same time, users could still compile one gmapsupp.img from all the continents using MapSource.

That eliminates the uses where only a few tiles are requested (which is the bulk of the requests) and does not profit from the bandwidth savings of such requests. It also eliminates the uniqueness of this service, there are already many other providers of precombined mapsets.

With the current tile limit the CPU usage is back to acceptable levels, requests are handled within an hour instead of day(s), disk usage takes a nose dive and, no doubt, bandwidth usage is much lower. I'm very happy with this. Users that really want a complete copy of (half) the world have to make their own.

mtrax wrote:

I was wondering if people want to publish a mirror list for each region to ease the bandwidth for your server
eg is you have common requests for updates based on regions they could download weekly and then people would be directed to local mirror

Well, maps of countries are already available from other map providers. It's the uniqueness of each personal request that makes this service stand out and makes mirroring difficult or ineffective at least.


Mapping tools: Garmin GPSmap 60CSx, Giant Terrago 2002

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#124 2009-04-27 12:23:14

Vclaw
Member
From: Alba
Registered: 2009-02-25
Posts: 522
Website

Re: Worldwide routable Garmin maps: http://garmin.openstreetmap.nl

It would be useful if the website could show the file size of the selected tiles, and the total size of them.
Some people are using Garmins with limited memory, so want to know whether the map will fit. And some have slow internet connections, so don't want huge downloads.
It might also discourage people from downloading half of the world at once.

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#125 2009-04-27 13:39:56

Lambertus
Administrator
From: Apeldoorn (NL)
Registered: 2007-03-17
Posts: 3,269
Website

Re: Worldwide routable Garmin maps: http://garmin.openstreetmap.nl

Vclaw wrote:

It would be useful if the website could show the file size of the selected tiles, and the total size of them.

That would be useful indeed, thanks for the suggestion.

Some people are using Garmins with limited memory, so want to know whether the map will fit.

Afaik, Garmins without SD-card do not support routing so they won't profit from this service. Also the tiles are optimized for maximum size and therefore not very suitable for Garmins with limited memory.

And some have slow internet connections, so don't want huge downloads. It might also discourage people from downloading half of the world at once.

True, but those who have a slow connection can see the size of the downloads when they are ready for download and the user can at that point decide not to download the map but request a smaller one instead. Those people with high bandwidth connections don't mind downloading two GB so they won't be discouraged anyway.


Mapping tools: Garmin GPSmap 60CSx, Giant Terrago 2002

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