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#51 2013-01-06 00:40:50

yrtimiD
Moderator
From: Israel
Registered: 2010-10-08
Posts: 247

Re: street names in Israel have several fundamental problems

Mr_Israel and others,
I have published the tool which I used to upload recent street edits. Maybe somebody will find it useful.
In short, tool takes CSV file with id, type and tags columns; downloads nodes/ways/relations from OSM, and applies tag values from CSV onto downloaded data. As result - you'll get regular .osm file which may be reviewed and uploaded using JOSM.
All source code and link to the compiled application are here: https://github.com/yrtimiD/osm-bulk-tools

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#52 2013-01-06 10:03:51

Mr_Israel
Moderator
From: Israel, Germany
Registered: 2009-03-02
Posts: 513

Re: street names in Israel have several fundamental problems

Wow... doesn that mean that I have to upload the new tables from now on by myself ? smile

But in my opinion you should open a new thread about your tool. It may interesting to others not following this thread.

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#53 2013-01-06 22:34:14

yrtimiD
Moderator
From: Israel
Registered: 2010-10-08
Posts: 247

Re: street names in Israel have several fundamental problems

Mr_Israel wrote:

Wow... doesn that mean that I have to upload the new tables from now on by myself ? smile

Oh yes, now all credit of changes will belong to you only smile

Mr_Israel wrote:

But in my opinion you should open a new thread about your tool. It may interesting to others not following this thread.

I want to little test it here, and if all goes good - I'll repost in in the other thread.

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#54 2013-01-16 20:28:39

Mr_Israel
Moderator
From: Israel, Germany
Registered: 2009-03-02
Posts: 513

Re: street names in Israel have several fundamental problems

I have done today my first bulk upload and it seems like everything went fine:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/14676351

It was very easy to handle, two feedbacks so far:

1. "Geting next 100 Ways from the API" => "Getting"

2. It would be great to get a kind of status how many lines are left (example: Getting next 100 Ways from the API - 500 left)

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#55 2013-01-16 21:37:04

yrtimiD
Moderator
From: Israel
Registered: 2010-10-08
Posts: 247

Re: street names in Israel have several fundamental problems

Mr_Israel wrote:

It was very easy to handle, two feedbacks so far:

1. "Geting next 100 Ways from the API" => "Getting"

2. It would be great to get a kind of status how many lines are left (example: Getting next 100 Ways from the API - 500 left)

Fixed. Thanks!

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#56 2013-01-18 13:57:04

Mr_Israel
Moderator
From: Israel, Germany
Registered: 2009-03-02
Posts: 513

Re: street names in Israel have several fundamental problems

New version works fine and its really nice to know how much will follow.
Thank you.

The first 12.000 streets are adjusted.
10.000 streets have to follow...

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#57 2013-01-21 12:58:26

Mr_Israel
Moderator
From: Israel, Germany
Registered: 2009-03-02
Posts: 513

Re: street names in Israel have several fundamental problems

The first 13.000 streets are adjusted.

topics to discuss:

Haim, Hayim, Chaim
Zion, Tsion, Tsiyon
HaRav, HaRabi, HaRabbi
etc...

What should be the standard for the name:en tag.
I'm never deleting values, only putting them as name:en1, name:en2 etc.
But we should decide what the standard name tag should be.

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#58 2013-01-21 13:01:24

yrtimiD
Moderator
From: Israel
Registered: 2010-10-08
Posts: 247

Re: street names in Israel have several fundamental problems

Mr_Israel wrote:

But we should decide what the standard name tag should be.

May be we can try to collect statistics of usage and drop most uncommon variants?

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#59 2013-01-21 13:25:28

Mr_Israel
Moderator
From: Israel, Germany
Registered: 2009-03-02
Posts: 513

Re: street names in Israel have several fundamental problems

Maybe...

I just dont want a situation where somebody will claim that I prefered the Haim variation over the Hayim, but this is wrong.
As I understood in the last month there is no right and wrong in street name translation.

We just have to make it somehow a equal experience to search for street names in OSM for Israel.

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#60 2013-03-10 15:32:36

Mr_Israel
Moderator
From: Israel, Germany
Registered: 2009-03-02
Posts: 513

Re: street names in Israel have several fundamental problems

Small update. As I included the tertiary streets the all over named street value is now around 30.000.

I have processed only around half of it (Aleph till Het).
It takes a lot of time to work over the streets.

Beside that I can see that our over all named street value is growing around 100 - 200 streets a month.
So every month there is more new gaps in the old data smile

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#61 2013-03-10 15:44:44

yrtimiD
Moderator
From: Israel
Registered: 2010-10-08
Posts: 247

Re: street names in Israel have several fundamental problems

@Mr_Israel, each time you do extracts into google docs - please share them. Additional pair of eyes will never harm (in most cases smile )

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#62 2013-03-12 13:55:50

Mr_Israel
Moderator
From: Israel, Germany
Registered: 2009-03-02
Posts: 513

Re: street names in Israel have several fundamental problems

I can't do that share every time. This is simply not possible time wise.
You can't edit details and then wait some days before uploading. Meanwhile there could be changes on this data.

But what we can do is uploading a current view on the data as it is from 1 - 15.000

This could help find issues and discuss next steps.

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#63 2013-03-18 15:02:08

Mr_Israel
Moderator
From: Israel, Germany
Registered: 2009-03-02
Posts: 513

Re: street names in Israel have several fundamental problems

As I continue working on the streets naming of Israel I discover more and more issues we have at the moment.

Example A:
Sometimes with '' sometimes in Hebrew with only one '
As we should have a standard way to define it we need declare how the standard should be.

ירושליים
ירושלים


Example B:
The Hebrew letter צ is translated in OSM every time fully different. I don't want to remove any variation but we should use the same way for the "name:en" tag

צבי => Tsvi or Zvi or Tzvi



Example C:
Two Hebrew letters can be translated in several ways כ and ח makes the translation look very unconsistance.

לכיש    Lachish or Lakhish or Lahish


Example D:
כרמל    => Carmel or Karmel


############################################

If you have an idea or you want to create a kind of guide you are very welcome.
I'm not that good in Hebrew to take over those questions.

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#64 2013-03-18 23:45:14

Mr_Israel
Moderator
From: Israel, Germany
Registered: 2009-03-02
Posts: 513

Re: street names in Israel have several fundamental problems

I have gone through the rest of thousands of streets and finished the review of more than 33.000 streets.
So there should be a very very minimum amount of non translated streets left now.

Finally this is done.

Maybe we can take a look on the result and have some translation guidelines?

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#65 2013-03-21 18:17:38

zstadler
Member
Registered: 2012-05-05
Posts: 340
Website

Re: street names in Israel have several fundamental problems

I hope it's not too late to contribute to the topic.

The official rules for transliterating Hebrew names to Latin letters is published by the Hebrew Academy - האקדמיה ללשון עברית:
http://hebrew-academy.huji.ac.il/hahlat … /ATAR1.pdf

The rules simply replace every consonant and vowel with one or two Latin letters.

There are additional rules for דגש חזק, the use of capital letters, אותיות השימוש, the use of an apostrophe ('), and the use of English translation for common words like Street, boulevard, Junction, interchange, and Port.

Note that these are transliteration rules, not translation rules. Nevertheless, the rules encourage the use of traditional foreign names, such as Mt. Zion (rather than Mt. Tziyon) and Herzl St.(rather than Hertzel St.). Therefore, we should use Carmel rather than Karmel. A ministerial committee has approved a list of places that appears to be a list of exceptions or places that had ambiguous names to be resolved.

For the sake of completeness, I'd like to say that there is also another source which I found to be unreliable as far as the English names are concerned. The Central Bureau of Statistics - הלשכה המרכזית לסטטסטיקה - published a list of places at http://www.cbs.gov.il/ishuvim/ishuvim_main.htm. IMO, the English names are incompatible with neither of the aboveץ For example: ELAT for אילת, EN KARMEL for עין כרמל. It's not even consistent within itself - it has Both EN and EIN for places starting with עין...

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#66 2013-03-22 10:40:07

Mr_Israel
Moderator
From: Israel, Germany
Registered: 2009-03-02
Posts: 513

Re: street names in Israel have several fundamental problems

Great contribution.

We are just starting to take care of street names.
I went over all street names and took care of missing once and made the street names more equal without loosing any kind of translation.

Now its time to get deeper into this and define rules that will make translation of street name easier and understandable for English speakers that benefit the most.


#################################################

Here is the link to the newest streetnames of Israel.

https://docs.google.com/folder/d/0BzoRS … sp=sharing


They are splittet into 3 files as Google Drive is not able to work with too big files.
You are welcome to change names. Just be aware that this will really effect street names later on.

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#67 2013-03-22 16:03:35

yrtimiD
Moderator
From: Israel
Registered: 2010-10-08
Posts: 247

Re: street names in Israel have several fundamental problems

One question bother me a long time: should I put "Boulevard" or "Avenue" in name:en instead of transliterated word "Sderot"?
And if yes, which one?

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#68 2013-03-22 21:53:44

Mr_Israel
Moderator
From: Israel, Germany
Registered: 2009-03-02
Posts: 513

Re: street names in Israel have several fundamental problems

Good question.

But the question should be, should we translate the sounding or the correct name.
Same goes for Sderot, Kikar, Beit Sefer, Kwish  etc.

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#69 2013-03-22 22:08:58

yrtimiD
Moderator
From: Israel
Registered: 2010-10-08
Posts: 247

Re: street names in Israel have several fundamental problems

Despite the fact that "Sderot" and "Kikar" can be found on official road signs, I'm pretty sure that these words absolutely meaningless to the english language readers. So, I'd prefer to translate all translatable.

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#70 2013-03-26 18:59:14

zstadler
Member
Registered: 2012-05-05
Posts: 340
Website

Re: street names in Israel have several fundamental problems

According to The Hebrew Academy, it is preferred (yet up to the transliteration bodies) to use translation rather than transliteration for general words that are used in their usual dictionary form. It gives a few examples like "רחוב, שדרה, צומת, מחלף, נמל" that would use the English words.

I propose we follow their recommendation and use "St.", "Blv.", "Jct.", "Sq.", "Rd.", "Interchange", and "Port". I also propose to prefer "Blv." for "שדרה" rather than "Ave.", unless the actual signs put by the local officials say differently.

Nothe that the Academy's suggestion does not apply for words that are part of the name. Their example is to use "Giv'at Ye'arim" rather than "Ye'arim Hill" or "Forests Hill".

Also, once we agree, it would be good to add the recommendation to the Israeli wiki page

Last edited by zstadler (2013-03-26 19:04:18)

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#71 2013-03-30 10:15:02

Mr_Israel
Moderator
From: Israel, Germany
Registered: 2009-03-02
Posts: 513

Re: street names in Israel have several fundamental problems

@zstadler:
What do you think of starting a wiki page for this topic and collect information how to define the translation of streets in Israel?
I can't do that as a foreigner with basic Hebrew skills and we really need it.



This is our current information rule for the naming of streets in Israel ( there is a lot of space for more details:

############################################################################
Naming

    The "name" tag should be used as the primary name, in the language most common in the area. The "name" tag should contain the name in only one language. Use other "name:*" for other languages.
    Use tag "name:he=..." for adding street names in Hebrew.
    Use "name:en" for the English name (prefer the exact spelling as it is on the street sign!)
    Use "name:ar" for the Arabic name
    Use "name:ru" for the Russian name
    Use "name:am" for the Amharic name
    Add the full name written on the sign, don't include "rehov" or "street"
    Do not use shortcuts, let the renderers do this.
############################################################################

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#72 2013-04-08 09:34:55

Mr_Israel
Moderator
From: Israel, Germany
Registered: 2009-03-02
Posts: 513

Re: street names in Israel have several fundamental problems

I have done another run of street optimization over the weekend.
Every run, less and less issues...

But still not optimized on the open topics discussed before.




Beside that here some new issues I collected today:

רב רבי : Rav / Rabi / Rabbi ?

שביל : Shvil / Path / Trail ?

שמעון : Shimon / Simon ?

משעול : Alley?

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#73 2013-04-09 20:21:16

eric22
Member
Registered: 2010-07-04
Posts: 114

Re: street names in Israel have several fundamental problems

רב and רבי are not the same.

רב should be translated Rav.
רבי, I think Rabbi is better.
There is also רבן in a few places which should be Rabban.

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#74 2013-04-10 05:44:05

zstadler
Member
Registered: 2012-05-05
Posts: 340
Website

Re: street names in Israel have several fundamental problems

משעול is a lane
שביל is a path
שמעון is Shim'on

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#75 2013-04-10 08:21:26

Mr_Israel
Moderator
From: Israel, Germany
Registered: 2009-03-02
Posts: 513

Re: street names in Israel have several fundamental problems

thanks..

I will start some definitions soon in our Israeli wiki.

Here another question.
Kwish 6 ? Should we keep the Kwish ? Should we rename it to Motorway?

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