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#1 2012-12-16 09:27:32

Mr_Israel
Moderator
From: Israel, Germany
Registered: 2009-03-02
Posts: 513

street names in Israel have several fundamental problems

Hello community,

after playing (messing) around with streetnames, I have realized that we have several problems with them, that we should solve in the future.
I think those problems are fundamental and do make the job of mapping a street very complicated if you want to make it perfect.
We need to think of a solution for those problems, a way to identify those problems and display them or fix them automatically.


1. Street name translations not standardized

Currently there is the rule for Openstreetmap Israel, that we should write in OSM what is written on the street sign.
That creates very strange street names that are not compatible to other cities where the street names are translated in a different way.
I even expect that most people will translate the street names by them self. This could be also a problem.

A example of 3 x the same streetname with 3 different translation:

אסתר המלכה        Ester Ha'Malca
אסתר המלכה        Ester HaMalka
אסתר המלכה        Ester Ha'Malka

Another example:

מנדלי מוכר ספרים        Mendele Mocher Sfarim
מנדלי מוכר הספרים        Mendele Mocher Sforim
מנדלי מוכר הספרים        Mendele Moher Sefarim
מנדלי מוכר ספרים        Mendele Moher Sefarim
מנדלי מוכר ספרים        Mendelei Mocher Sfarim
מנדלי מוכר ספרים        Mendeley Moher Sfarim
מנדלי מוכר ספרים        Mendeli Mokher Sfarmin



2. Ha ("ה") or no Ha in front of the street name

I realized that the Israeli street names are not very strict with the usage of ("ה") in front of a street name, what is very hard to understand for tourists or not Hebrew talker.
Even the map provider seem to have a rule on this, so it doesn't count what is written on the street sign. It counts the root of the word.
And if the Hebrew word is different, also the translation will have even more varieties of the word.

Example:

הכרמל    Carmel
כרמל        Carmel
הכרמל    HaCarmel
הכרמל    Ha'Carmel


3. With a apostrophe after Ha ("ה") or without in the English translation

A lot of streets in Israel have a quote after the "Ha'" that makes it harder to find it in a search and it makes it unequal to other street names.


Example:

האצ"ל        HaEtzel
האצ"ל        Ha'Etzel

הכרמל    HaCarmel
הכרמל    Ha'Carmel

הגליל        HaGalil
הגליל        Ha'Galil


4. Derech in the street name

There is also the rule not to write "Derech" as part of the street name in Israel
(Over 600 streets do not follow this rule).


דרך אפק            Derech Afek
דרך אהרון שולוב        Derech Aharon Sholov
דרך אלוף עוזי נרקיס    Derech Aluf Uzi Narkis
דרך איילות            Derech Ayalot
דרך בר כוכבא        Derech Bar Kochba
דרך בר-כוכבא        Derech Bar Kochba



5. Missing translation of English or Hebrew street name

We still have a huge amount of streets not translated to Hebrew or English in Israel.
Over 1.000 streets have this problem.

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#2 2012-12-16 09:27:44

Mr_Israel
Moderator
From: Israel, Germany
Registered: 2009-03-02
Posts: 513

Re: street names in Israel have several fundamental problems

#################################################
My thoughts:
#################################################


Here are my ideas for solving issue by issue:

1. We should have a website where I can write a Hebrew or English name and it provide me a list of how it should be written in the OSM way definition.
The answer could be several different ways of translation, but also Russian or Arabic. And
It would be of course perfect if it could be added automatically to the way ID I provide.

Example:

Searchfield : [מנדלי מוכר ספרים]

name:he מנדלי מוכר ספרים
name:he2 מנדלי מוכר הספרים
name:en Mendele Moher Sefarim
name:en1 Mendele Moher HaSefarim
name:en2 Mendele Mocher Sforim
name:en3 Mendele Moher Sefarim
name:en4 Mendelei Mocher Sfarim
name:en5 Mendeley Moher Sfarim
name:en6 Mendeli Mokher Sfarmin
name:en7 Mendele Mocher HaSforim
name:en8 Mendeley Moher HaSfarim
name:ar شارع ابوعبيدة
name:ru Исраэль Йишааяу


Another idea is to add streetname IDs. Meaning that we populate a table of all streets in Israel with different street names (around 10.000) and then we adding the ids to every street name that fits.
This way we could identify duplicated names and add in a kind of automatic process even more translation possebilites to it. Of course this idea is probably not realistic, but it would solve all kind of problems with different street names we have today.


2. I would recommend to add the root of the street name without the "Ha" as another street name tag to the way.
This way it would be possible to search for a street name without a full text search and find the correct result, no matter if with Ha or without.

Example:

name הגליל
name:he הגליל
name:he1 גליל
name:en HaGalil
name:en1 Galil


3. I would like to remove all quotes from the Ha phenomen, no matter what is written on the street sign.
There is no reason to keep it and create even more variations of street names with this strange character.

This could be done somehow automatically.

Example:
Ha'Galil => HaGalil
Ha'Etzel => HaEtzel
Ha'Carmel => HaCarmel

4. Derech should never be a part of the streetname. This was decided back at the beginning of OSM in Israel, and I like this rule.
We should in a kind of automatic process the derech both in Hebrew and also in English.

Including the "street" that is used in some name tags.

5. Creating a list of missing translations is the beginning, and those list can be easily created.
But it takes a lot of time to solve the issues. And a website like in topic 1. would really help a lot to fix the missing translations in seconds.

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#3 2012-12-16 09:34:45

yrtimiD
Moderator
From: Israel
Registered: 2010-10-08
Posts: 249

Re: street names in Israel have several fundamental problems

Does nominatim and other knows how to handle all these en1, en2, he1 postfixes?

Today I'll populate another table with way-ids so we can at least solve all "similar" names problem.
The table will include only residential/living_street with name tags but with or name:he or name:en or name tag missing.

After sorting by name, we'll see most similar but different names.

And about other translations - I agree with Mr_Israel, let's firstly fix English and Hebrew and only after - other languages.

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#4 2012-12-16 13:32:43

Mr_Israel
Moderator
From: Israel, Germany
Registered: 2009-03-02
Posts: 513

Re: street names in Israel have several fundamental problems

@yrtimiD : Yes, name:en1 name:en2 etc are used by nominatum and OSM apps on Android (Navigator).


What do you think about the "Ha" Situation and my suggestions around it?

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#5 2012-12-16 16:39:23

eric22
Member
Registered: 2010-07-04
Posts: 114

Re: street names in Israel have several fundamental problems

1. Keep in mind that some streets are specifically named "Carmel" and some are "HaCarmel". I don't know if any cities have both, I couldn't find any. Google Maps accepts "Carmel" as an alternate for "HaCarmel", but not the reverse. That seems like a reasonable approach for us too.

2. From OSM Editing Standards and Conventions: "Watch out for apostrophes. The same rule applies. If the street sign has an apostrophe, the OSM data should have an apostrophe." However, in my opinion it is fine to add an alternate name without the apostrophe.

Last edited by eric22 (2012-12-16 16:39:38)

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#6 2012-12-16 23:56:30

yrtimiD
Moderator
From: Israel
Registered: 2010-10-08
Posts: 249

Re: street names in Israel have several fundamental problems

Another try:
Dictionary of all he/en names from all ways with highway=* https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc … 3QwSnhDZVE

All ways with highway=* and missing one of (name, name:en, name:he): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc … UtvSHdESUE
this one has id and version column, so I'll know how to update back. also, to update only changed lines - we can put any value into "update" column.
I do not imported all name1, name:he1, etc forms, but name, name:he and name:en - always must exists, right?

want to try?

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#7 2012-12-17 12:52:22

Mr_Israel
Moderator
From: Israel, Germany
Registered: 2009-03-02
Posts: 513

Re: street names in Israel have several fundamental problems

eric22 wrote:

1. Keep in mind that some streets are specifically named "Carmel" and some are "HaCarmel". I don't know if any cities have both, I couldn't find any. Google Maps accepts "Carmel" as an alternate for "HaCarmel", but not the reverse. That seems like a reasonable approach for us too.

- Google seems to have a full text search (its google, what did you expect :) )
- In OSM we should have both version in the way definition saved. Just think of your self if somebody tells you to visit him at Carmel street. You will always have to check in Hebrew or English for "HaCarmel" and "Carmel". And if you are good you would also write in English "Carmiel". I'm very sure google saves a table for every street name and all kind of translations and names globally and not street specific. So if you search for Carmel street you will find all streets in Israel. No matter if a translator in Sfar Saba wrote it different on the streetsign than the translator in Eilat.

We should always save both versions (both English and Hebrew):

  name:en = HaCarmel
  name:en1 = Carmel


eric22 wrote:

2. From OSM Editing Standards and Conventions: "Watch out for apostrophes. The same rule applies. If the street sign has an apostrophe, the OSM data should have an apostrophe." However, in my opinion it is fine to add an alternate name without the apostrophe.

I would prefer to reduce the amount of different regional translations. Israel is a small country and every village can use his own translation.
But if we decide on a stricter rule, it would be easier for everybody to find what he searches for. Google has for example a strict translation rule, as iGo has.
This way you will find the street that you searching for if you understand how the rules in OSM are.

I would remove all apostrophes from the translation, no matter if they are written or not on the street sign.
If somebody wants to have it, it should be written as name:en1 etc.

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#8 2012-12-17 13:59:16

eric22
Member
Registered: 2010-07-04
Posts: 114

Re: street names in Israel have several fundamental problems

1. Carmel and HaCarmel are actual different names. See for example:
HaCarmel: http://goo.gl/maps/VwKi7
Carmel: http://goo.gl/maps/Ni9Au
We have to choose the correct one for name, name:he, name:en, etc.
For name:en1, name:he1, etc. we can put the other one.

2. Nominatim already removes apostrophes when you search - try searching for "Earls Court" and "Earl's Court", for each search you will get results with and without apostrophe. I think the name on the sign has to always be one of the stored names. Whether it should be name:en or name:en1, I'd have to think more.

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#9 2012-12-17 14:04:49

yrtimiD
Moderator
From: Israel
Registered: 2010-10-08
Posts: 249

Re: street names in Israel have several fundamental problems

IMHO, it's a search engine's job to recognize wrongly typed queries, and it's very wrong to add all possible type/translate variants. Name must have the only right value, and search engine must know to derive all other values. It's not possible now, but for sure will be.

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#10 2012-12-17 15:47:57

Mr_Israel
Moderator
From: Israel, Germany
Registered: 2009-03-02
Posts: 513

Re: street names in Israel have several fundamental problems

I have created a different kind of table that includes the first 5030 streets (sorted by alphabetic order by name field).

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc … GhmWjI3M2c

How is this table different from the one yrtimiD created?

1. It includes all streets no matter if there is something missing or not (this makes it searchable and you can most probably copy paste the street names, no need to translate).
2. It marks all missing fields for name:he and name:en with a different color. If somebody writes something in this field, it is changing the background color to white.
3. It also includes the update field that will change its color if somebody wrote something in it.
4. It includes the russian and arabic translation. As it is very easy to copy paste things, it could help a lot to add those translations to existing streets.


Why did I create this list only for the first 5030 entries?

Because Google is not capable to load all 21.000 entries in one table in Google Drive.
And because I think we should start with a small chunk and then extend it.
This way we will not cause any damage.



For everybody that would like to know how to create this list by yourself .... here is the command line "code".
After it I loaded it in Excel and used the sort function.

osmconvert israel_and_palestine.osm.pbf --all-to-nodes  --drop-author -o=temp\israel_nodes.o5m
osmfilter temp\israel_nodes.o5m  --keep="highway=residential and name=* and is_in!=Egypt and is_in!=Jordan and is_in!=Syria and is_in!=Lebanon and is_in!=Gaza" -o=temp\israel_streets.o5m
osmconvert temp\israel_streets.o5m -B=poly\israel.poly --csv-headline --csv="@id @lon @lat is_in highway name name:he name:he1 name:he2 name:he3 name:ar name:ru name:en name:en1 name:en2 name:en3 name:en4 name:en5 name:en6" -o=israel_streets_withArRuEnHe.csv
pause

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#11 2012-12-17 15:53:13

Mr_Israel
Moderator
From: Israel, Germany
Registered: 2009-03-02
Posts: 513

Re: street names in Israel have several fundamental problems

yrtimiD wrote:

IMHO, it's a search engine's job to recognize wrongly typed queries, and it's very wrong to add all possible type/translate variants. Name must have the only right value, and search engine must know to derive all other values. It's not possible now, but for sure will be.

I don't think that we will get there in the near future.
It is very easy to add more fields to be searched through in software, but it is a lot harder to create a working algorithm that will take care about the different translation types.
Specially for Israel, where we have such a "strange" left to right language :-)


@yrtimiD: Can we use my table or is there a problem with the ID or other stuff?

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#12 2012-12-18 21:28:17

eric22
Member
Registered: 2010-07-04
Posts: 114

Re: street names in Israel have several fundamental problems

I have added many entries to yrtimiD's table. I have also highlighted in yellow where I think there is probably a small mistake, but don't want to fix it without looking at name:he1 or name:en1 first.

It would be better to work from Mr_Israel's table (once the changes to  yrtimiD's table are imported). Currently though I find Mr_Israel's table hard to work with, because the columns name:he1-4 are too wide. If that is changed, so that it is possible to see the most important names (name, name:he, name:en) at the same time, it will be better because it is more complete.

Last edited by eric22 (2012-12-18 21:28:42)

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#13 2012-12-19 09:18:02

Mr_Israel
Moderator
From: Israel, Germany
Registered: 2009-03-02
Posts: 513

Re: street names in Israel have several fundamental problems

Hey Eric,

Of course you can change the size of the columns. This shouldn't be a issue.
This is just a visualization problem you writing about.
We could make them very small and define to grey them out if they are empty anyway.
This would make it even easier to avoid them...

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#14 2012-12-20 12:38:28

Mr_Israel
Moderator
From: Israel, Germany
Registered: 2009-03-02
Posts: 513

Re: street names in Israel have several fundamental problems

I have changed the view of the table. It should be fitting more onto the browser now.

@yrtimiD: Can you tell me if you can reimport my table (technically speaking)?
I personally don't know how to do that, thats why I haven't done anything so far on my table. But I would be very fast finished, if you tell me that you are able to work with it.

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#15 2012-12-20 16:27:32

yrtimiD
Moderator
From: Israel
Registered: 2010-10-08
Posts: 249

Re: street names in Israel have several fundamental problems

Mr_Israel wrote:

@yrtimiD: Can you tell me if you can reimport my table (technically speaking)?

I think yes, but to be sure - I'd need a version column.
Also, your ID column looks very strange to me.

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#16 2012-12-20 17:50:27

Mr_Israel
Moderator
From: Israel, Germany
Registered: 2009-03-02
Posts: 513

Re: street names in Israel have several fundamental problems

yrtimiD wrote:
Mr_Israel wrote:

@yrtimiD: Can you tell me if you can reimport my table (technically speaking)?

I think yes, but to be sure - I'd need a version column.
Also, your ID column looks very strange to me.


If you tell me how get your columns, then I will add them.
I'm using OSMCONVERT to create the table and the details are listed bellow.

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#17 2012-12-20 20:25:02

eric22
Member
Registered: 2010-07-04
Posts: 114

Re: street names in Israel have several fundamental problems

yrtimiD - can you upload every entry in your table which has a number in the Update column, *OR* for all which all three entries (name, name:en, name:he) are present? After that is done, we can use Mr_Israel's table (or a variation of it).

Mr_Israel: I must have a browser issue...

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#18 2012-12-21 17:43:28

yrtimiD
Moderator
From: Israel
Registered: 2010-10-08
Posts: 249

Re: street names in Israel have several fundamental problems

Here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/8w81rgmuxd0x7 … _only.poly
is mine israel only .poly file.
Because I have no good knowledge in palestinian areas, I tried to include all settlements with hebrew names.
Fill free to edit and publish.

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#19 2012-12-21 18:15:30

Mr_Israel
Moderator
From: Israel, Germany
Registered: 2009-03-02
Posts: 513

Re: street names in Israel have several fundamental problems

I haven't received that much feedback about the problems I specified.
So here again a kind of summary... Please give me a feedback of your opinion. Otherwise it doesn't make sense to work through so much data and update OSM without taking about this and that problem right away.


1. Street name translations not standardized

Eric22: (?)
yrtimiD: (?)

Mr_Israel: I would try to standardize the street names in some kind of way. I would recommend to use a standard translation and don't care about the translation written on the street sign.

Current situation:

מנדלי מוכר ספרים        Mendele Mocher Sfarim
מנדלי מוכר הספרים        Mendele Mocher Sforim
מנדלי מוכר הספרים        Mendele Moher Sefarim
מנדלי מוכר ספרים        Mendele Moher Sefarim
מנדלי מוכר ספרים        Mendelei Mocher Sfarim
מנדלי מוכר ספרים        Mendeley Moher Sfarim
מנדלי מוכר ספרים        Mendeli Mokher Sfarmin

What I would use in all 7 cases:

[name]                [name:he]                [name:he1]           [name:en]                   [name:en1]                 [name:en2]                     [name:en3]                       [name:en4]                  [name:en5] 
מנדלי מוכר הספרים          מנדלי מוכר ספרים      מנדלי מוכר ספרים    Mendele Mocher Sfarim     Mendele Mocher Sforim       Mendele Moher Sefarim          Mendelei Mocher Sfarim           Mendeley Moher Sfarim      Mendeli Mokher Sfarmin


2. Ha ("ה") or no Ha in front of the street name

Eric22: (?)
yrtimiD: (?)

Mr_Israel:
Use the street name as written on the street sign for the "name" tag of the way and translate the words to English.
Please try as much as possible to use name:en1 for the root of the word, to make it easier to find.

Example:
name:en HaGalil
name:en1 Galil



3. With a apostrophe after Ha ("ה") or without in the English translation 

yrtimiD: (?)
Eric22:
Nominatim already removes apostrophes when you search - try searching for "Earls Court" and "Earl's Court", for each search you will get results with and without apostrophe. I think the name on the sign has to always be one of the stored names. Whether it should be name:en or name:en1, I'd have to think more.


Mr_Israel:
I would like to remove all quotes from the Ha phenomen, no matter what is written on the street sign.
There is no reason to keep it and create even more variations of street names with this strange character.
It shouldn't matter if the translation is written on the street name with a apostrophe. We should remove all of them from the name:en tag. If you think the information should be still saved, we could save it as name:en1.

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#20 2012-12-21 18:35:21

yrtimiD
Moderator
From: Israel
Registered: 2010-10-08
Posts: 249

Re: street names in Israel have several fundamental problems

Checked manual for osmconvert, and it looks like impossible to output version of the object.
Also, now I know how to convert back your ID values.

I needed the version value to be sure I do not overwrite somebody else's changes.

So, Mr_Israel, I think you can continue your fixes, and then you'll finish, I'll apply all non empty values from changed rows back to the ways and upload them to the OSM.

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#21 2012-12-21 18:43:57

yrtimiD
Moderator
From: Israel
Registered: 2010-10-08
Posts: 249

Re: street names in Israel have several fundamental problems

Mr_Israel wrote:

Current situation:

מנדלי מוכר ספרים        Mendele Mocher Sfarim
מנדלי מוכר הספרים        Mendele Mocher Sforim
מנדלי מוכר הספרים        Mendele Moher Sefarim
מנדלי מוכר ספרים        Mendele Moher Sefarim
מנדלי מוכר ספרים        Mendelei Mocher Sfarim
מנדלי מוכר ספרים        Mendeley Moher Sfarim
מנדלי מוכר ספרים        Mendeli Mokher Sfarmin

What I would use in all 7 cases:

[name]                [name:he]                [name:he1]           [name:en]                   [name:en1]                 [name:en2]                     [name:en3]                       [name:en4]                  [name:en5] 
מנדלי מוכר הספרים          מנדלי מוכר ספרים      מנדלי מוכר ספרים    Mendele Mocher Sfarim     Mendele Mocher Sforim       Mendele Moher Sefarim          Mendelei Mocher Sfarim           Mendeley Moher Sfarim      Mendeli Mokher Sfarmin

I'll actually will prefer the wikipedia variant of translation in name:en (for example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mendele_Mocher_Sforim)
also, i'd drop all 100% incorrect variants like "Mendeli Mokher Sfarmin"

I'm really not sure if we need to keep all that strange english varians, I'd keep only one, mostly used translation (if it's equal to the wikipedia variant)
For hebrew names - must be only one value, as all other are for sure mistaken.

About Ha* and Ha'* I'm really don't know what is better and right, but for sure we must normalize all to one schema.

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#22 2012-12-21 20:34:14

Mr_Israel
Moderator
From: Israel, Germany
Registered: 2009-03-02
Posts: 513

Re: street names in Israel have several fundamental problems

yrtimiD wrote:

For hebrew names - must be only one value, as all other are for sure mistaken.

So how would you like to decide what version is correct.
With or without "Ha" ?

Example:

מנדלי מוכר ספרים
מנדלי מוכר [b]ה[/b]ספרים

I don't want to be the one to delete correct value, because I think I'm more accurate than the person that did the editing.
We should try to never loose any data.

Beside that we have also the issue of Jerusalem. Should we translate it to name:en=Jerusalem or name:en=Yerusalaim

This will not be answered by Wikipedia.

And also I'm not sure with "Mokher" and "Moher" and "Mocher".
iGo for example would use "Mokher".

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#23 2012-12-21 20:53:10

yrtimiD
Moderator
From: Israel
Registered: 2010-10-08
Posts: 249

Re: street names in Israel have several fundamental problems

IMHO, the version "מנדלי מוכר הספרים" is wrong. But here we do have wiki for answer.
For other cases it's quite difficult to know what is right, as we all saw many road signs with awful typing errors.
I asked my friend (his mother learned linguistics), so tomorrow we'll possible get answer about apostrophe usage after Ha.

Let's for start fix all typing errors and all common errors like:

א.ד. גורדיון (wrong Yud)
אהרונוביץ (no ' at the end)
אירוס ארגמן (for sure must be HaArgaman in hebrew)
אלוף הניצחון or אלוף הנצחון
אריה דולצין or אריה דולצ'ין
all variants of ארלוזורוב must be for sure ד"ר חיים ארלוזורוב
same for ביאליק must be full name and not shortcut
etc...

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#24 2012-12-21 22:55:29

Mr_Israel
Moderator
From: Israel, Germany
Registered: 2009-03-02
Posts: 513

Re: street names in Israel have several fundamental problems

Ok.

After 2 - 3 hours of work, I have a table with a lot of fixes ready.
There is still a lot left to do in the table, but its very interesting if the upload will be possible that easy or not.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc … GhmWjI3M2c


Following things have been changed so far:

1. tried removed all "derech" / "roads" / "streets"
2. copied from existing translations to missing translations.
3. If there are several translation types of the same Hebrew spelling I used name:en1, name:en2 etc. and updated this way all roads.
4. If there where several of a kind of road and there was a existing arabic or russian translation I copied those into other fields.

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#25 2012-12-22 18:38:01

eric22
Member
Registered: 2010-07-04
Posts: 114

Re: street names in Israel have several fundamental problems

To Mr_Israel's questions:
1. Hebrew - as written on sign. English - For names (of people, places, etc.)  - standard spelling according to Wikipedia or other resources, unless there is a note saying "I saw the road sign and the English spelling is ___" or similar.
2. Same as Mr_Israel above
3. I change my mind - I prefer without apostrophe, unless there is a note saying "I saw the road sign and there is an apostrophe" or similar.

(I assume that almost all English translations are based on assumptions or general knowledge, not having actually looked carefully at the spelling on the sign.)

also, i'd drop all 100% incorrect variants like "Mendeli Mokher Sfarmin"

Agreed

all variants of ארלוזורוב must be for sure ד"ר חיים ארלוזורוב

Not sure about this one. On Tel Aviv street signs there is no ד"ר and I don't think the average person would think to look for this. And when I search for the address on the Israel post office website (that's pretty official, no?) it just uses ארלוזורוב in Tel Aviv and Haifa (the only two I checked)! So I think maybe we shouldn't add first names and titles when they aren't already there.

Beside that we have also the issue of Jerusalem. Should we translate it to name:en=Jerusalem or name:en=Yerusalaim

If you pronounce "Yerushalayim" you're probably already using Hebrew letters, and "Jerusalem" is universally known, and it avoids issues with all the Arabs and international people who also consider the city to be "theirs", so I prefer "Jerusalem". "Yerushalayim" should be a secondary name.

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