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#26 2012-08-07 14:15:12

Mr_Israel
Moderator
From: Israel, Germany
Registered: 2009-03-02
Posts: 513

Re: Highway classification

I have updated the wiki pages of Israel to the new accepted standard.
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Wiki … onventions


So the next step would be to start migrating the roads to the new standard.
Can somebody automate this?

1. primary=>trunk
2. primary_link=>trunk_link
3. secondary=>primary
4. secondary_link => primary_link
5. Then we will manually search for all primary roads that have no ref and check what status this road should get.


I'm currently running through my own list making sure that all primary roads are having a ref key.
I have already completed this job on motorways. ALL motorways in Israel have a "ref" key.

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#27 2012-08-07 14:20:55

yrtimiD
Moderator
From: Israel
Registered: 2010-10-08
Posts: 234

Re: Highway classification

How can this may be done automatically? the assumption was to change road types accordingly to the road ref sign colors. Or I'm wrong?

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#28 2012-08-07 14:30:44

Mr_Israel
Moderator
From: Israel, Germany
Registered: 2009-03-02
Posts: 513

Re: Highway classification

correct.

Todays primary (red sign) and secondary (green sign) road classification is fully the same as in the future standard.
The only difference is that we move them one class higher.
From primary => trunk. From secondary => primary.
This is the only thing we can somehow automate.

There will be no automate to find the 4 digits roads and define them as secondary.
There will also be no automate to find the differences between a highway (blue sign) and a trunk (red sign).

We have currently around 1.000 primary road parts  (bridge and roundabout included).
And around 1.100 secondary road parts (bridge and roundabout included).
I hope you don't want to go through all of them and change them manually?

Last edited by Mr_Israel (2012-08-07 17:16:03)

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#29 2012-08-07 14:37:47

yrtimiD
Moderator
From: Israel
Registered: 2010-10-08
Posts: 234

Re: Highway classification

ah, ok, I understand.
but making automated changes may be little problematic, as any bbox will contain also our neighbours.
I can create query which will return all highways by type. Possible, I can try to use smaller bbox'es, such as only roads near borders will be unchanged.

Any other ideas?

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#30 2012-08-07 15:25:20

Mr_Israel
Moderator
From: Israel, Germany
Registered: 2009-03-02
Posts: 513

Re: Highway classification

Would be interesting how you are importing it back to OSM.
I just learned how to fetch data and filter it from OSM. No clue how to write back.

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#31 2012-08-07 15:31:15

yrtimiD
Moderator
From: Israel
Registered: 2010-10-08
Posts: 234

Re: Highway classification

It's easier than you think smile
Just export to osm file, open it in josm, check/edit/validate and upload using same josm.

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#32 2012-08-08 18:50:48

yrtimiD
Moderator
From: Israel
Registered: 2010-10-08
Posts: 234

Re: Highway classification

Before we start our bulk change, we must be sure nobody do such changes manually.
I think on near weekend I can handle this.

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#33 2012-08-08 18:58:45

Mr_Israel
Moderator
From: Israel, Germany
Registered: 2009-03-02
Posts: 513

Re: Highway classification

Ohh... I just wanted to do that but the first step is already finished as it looks.
Seems like all primary roads are now trunk. From zoom level 13 all major roads are green smile

Yesterday I made sure that all "old" primary roads are defined correctly and have a ref tag.

So I would wait for tomorrow for a new Geofabrik extract to check if really everything is changed and nothing was left.
And I would like to migrate all secondary to primary tomorrow. My first bulk change.

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#34 2012-08-08 19:19:10

yrtimiD
Moderator
From: Israel
Registered: 2010-10-08
Posts: 234

Re: Highway classification

Mr_Israel wrote:

And I would like to migrate all secondary to primary tomorrow. My first bulk change.

Fine smile

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#35 2012-08-09 09:05:50

Mr_Israel
Moderator
From: Israel, Germany
Registered: 2009-03-02
Posts: 513

Re: Highway classification

I checked for primary road leftovers and found several and fixed them.
At the moment there is no primary road in Israel.


Next task:

Bulk change all secondary roads with a ref=* tag to primary roads.
I will run this upload in the next hour if there is no technical problem :-)

This way we will have all secondary roads left that need a manual check if they will be kept as secondary or is the ref tag was missing.
There should be never a primary road without a ref tag in Israel. Same goes for trunk and motorway.

Last edited by Mr_Israel (2012-08-09 09:09:24)

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#36 2012-08-09 13:07:33

Mr_Israel
Moderator
From: Israel, Germany
Registered: 2009-03-02
Posts: 513

Re: Highway classification

OK. You probably saw more street colors in Israel. Blue, Green, Red, Orange and Yellow roads are now standard on every view in Mapnik.

It was not that simple but I managed to upload the data through JOSM.
Now it's time for manual work.

We need to check for all secondary roads and see why they are defined like that.
In most cases they have no ref tag as they are simply defined this way because its a big street with the function of connecting important places.
So it should stay as secondary. If the secondary is surrounded by a primary road we need to change it to primary too and add the ref tag.

Next task:
Tomorrow I will check for any kind of missings and go through all secondary leftovers.
If there is no problems I will upgrade all 4 digit tertiary- roads to secondary.

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#37 2012-08-10 10:24:35

Mr_Israel
Moderator
From: Israel, Germany
Registered: 2009-03-02
Posts: 513

Re: Highway classification

Happy to announce that all leftovers are taken care of.
We have currently only secondary (-link) roads left that have no digits at are declared as very important.
All Primary, Trunk, Motorway and their  -link roads are defined and finished. There is nothing that I need to their anymore.

Here some (if not all) exceptional secondary roads that Eric asked for and that where defined like before the new road classification:
[If you have time it would be great to over them and check if this definition makes really sense]

http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=31.84 … 5&layers=M [Maybe a extension of 437?]
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=32.70 … 5&layers=M [Is not a exception as it has the ref 3001]
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=32.50 … 6&layers=M [Does this really make sense? I would define it as TERTIARY]
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=32.50 … 4&layers=M [Does this really make sense? I would define it as TERTIARY]
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=32.44 … 5&layers=M
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=32.10 … 4&layers=M [Will probably get a new classification and number when finished.]
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=31.90 … 5&layers=M
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=31.27 … 4&layers=M
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=31.78 … 5&layers=M [Really no ref number for this road?]
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=32.78 … 4&layers=M

As a very strict rule:
All motorways, trunk and primary roads have to have a "ref" tag. This means also roundabouts.
This way we could identify a issue in the road system very fast and fix it.


There is currently only one exception that needs discussion as its defined as trunk but has no ref key. According to our new rule it would need to be changed to secondary:
HaTeufa in the Airport Ben Gurion http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=31.99 … 6&layers=M



Next task:
Bulk update all TERTIARY with 4 digits to Secondary roads. (More than 500 street parts in Israel)
This will be done tomorrow.

Last edited by Mr_Israel (2012-08-10 10:41:07)

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#38 2012-08-10 14:54:58

eric22
Member
Registered: 2010-07-04
Posts: 113

Re: Highway classification

(UPDATE: The links in my post don't work, I'm quoting from the previous post, use the links there instead)

http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=31.84 … 5&layers=M [Maybe a extension of 437?]

This road is only used by Palestinians, I don't know if it's even part of the Israel OSM project.

http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=32.70 … 5&layers=M [Is not a exception as it has the ref 3001]

This, and many other roads in Israeli Arab communities, have road numbers instead of names. These are not Israeli reference numbers, they are local name-numbers! So they should not be categorized according to the number. We have to be careful about this. However, this particular road is important enough that I think it should be "secondary" anyway.

http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=32.50 … 6&layers=M [Does this really make sense? I would define it as TERTIARY]

This is effectively an intercity road, so a higher classification would make sense to me, but "tertiary" would also be OK.

http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=32.50 … 4&layers=M [Does this really make sense? I would define it as TERTIARY]

Definitely "tertiary"

http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=32.44 … 5&layers=M

OK

http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=32.10 … 4&layers=M [Will probably get a new classification and number when finished.]

OK

http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=31.90 … 5&layers=M
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=31.27 … 4&layers=M
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=31.78 … 5&layers=M [Really no ref number for this road?]
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=32.78 … 4&layers=M

OK,OK,OK,OK.
BTW, I think there are some more roads in the Tel Aviv and Jerusalem areas that deserve "secondary", but we can do that later.

Last edited by eric22 (2012-08-10 14:55:56)

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#39 2012-08-11 08:23:03

Mr_Israel
Moderator
From: Israel, Germany
Registered: 2009-03-02
Posts: 513

Re: Highway classification

FINISHED!

Thats it... I have bulk uploaded today all TERTIARY with 4 digits as Secondary roads. (More than 700 street parts)
The rest needs to be done manually and I really hope that everybody will look around his area and fix the TERTIARY_links to secondary_links.

What I already see is a great picture of the country with all its major connection roads.
@eric: you are welcome to add your secondary roads in Jerusalem and TelAviv now. No reason to wait smile


Mr_Israel wrote:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=32.50 … 4&layers=M [Does this really make sense? I would define it as TERTIARY]

I downgraded the road to TERTIARY. Makes a lot more sense. Complains can go to me smile


eric22 wrote:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=32.50 … 4&layers=M [Does this really make sense? I would define it as TERTIARY]
This road is only used by Palestinians, I don't know if it's even part of the Israel OSM project.

I have handled the Palestinian road system as it was in Israel.
If there is any demand of change they are welcome to do it now.

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#40 2012-08-16 17:31:29

Mr_Israel
Moderator
From: Israel, Germany
Registered: 2009-03-02
Posts: 513

Re: Highway classification

I have now also checked and upgraded all residential roads with ref tag with a 4 digits number to secondary.
Fully forgot that this could exist.

Beside that I manually fixed a lot junctions where the TERTIARY_link was upgraded to secondary_link.


I'm happy to see a lot of new urban secondary roads in Israel.
It is now also easier to define a road as TERTIARY as it doesn't mean it has to be a big and mandatory street.
I'm very sure that routing will be a lot better in Israel from now on as the new street classification will also help to use the linking roads in most cases as shortcut.
Waiting for map updates of all gps navigation softwares on my Android to test it in the future smile

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#41 2012-08-31 21:41:29

yrtimiD
Moderator
From: Israel
Registered: 2010-10-08
Posts: 234

Re: Highway classification

At some point road 2 becomes highway. I noticed signs from Herzliya north - are red, so whole Namir road + part northern to Herzliya - is trunk, but I don't know until when.

Can somebody check where exactly road 2 switches from trunk to motorway?

Update: confirmed until Netaniya - all signs have red background, so I changing this road part to trunk
Update2: checked until Atlet junction - all way only red signs, and signs about 2 north red too.

Last edited by yrtimiD (2012-09-05 20:58:56)

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#42 2012-10-22 10:40:30

Son Grove
Member
Registered: 2012-10-22
Posts: 5

Re: Highway classification

Mr_Israel wrote:

So here is my suggestion for the new road classification in Openstreetmap for Israel:
(I have updated it with speed limits and exceptions)

PLEASE APPROVE OR GIVE FEEDBACK

###############################################################################

First rule for numbered roads: It doesn't count the amount of digits but the color of the sign!


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c … SR-HW6.png http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c … R-HW20.png http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c … 31BLUE.PNG => MOTORWAY (Blue sign)- all freeways - National roads and Inter-City roads.
Normaly they have one digit (example road 2) or two digits (example road 20).
As a exception they could have also three digits (example road 431).
Speed limit is 110 km/h if no sign defines something lower.
Mapnik color: █████



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c … SR-HW3.png http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c … R-HW10.png => TRUNK (Red sign) - all expressways.
Expressways in Israel could look very much like a freeway.
Normaly they have two digits in the sign (example road 10).
Speed limit is 100 km/h if no sign defines something lower.
To avoid editing wars it always counts the color of the sign. If its blue it counts as freeway. If its red it counts as expressway.
Mapnik color: █████



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c … -HW293.png http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c … -HW864.png => PRIMARY (Green sign) - all regional roads.
Normaly they have three digits in the sign (example road 412). 
Speed limit is 90 km/h if no sign defines something lower.
Mapnik color: █████



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c … HW4111.png http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c … HW3631.png => SECONDARY (Brown/ Black sign) - all regional roads.
Normaly they have four digits in the sign (example road 4111).
Priority over other crossing roads (the other roads have a stop sign)
Speed limit is 80 km/h if no sign defines something lower.
Mapnik color: █████

[Exception per Eric22 request]: very large urban roads that are unnumbered (generally around 1 per 100000 inhabitants). Roads that are more important for routing connections that a normal tertirary road.
Here is one example of such a exception in Hadera:  http://www.openstreetmap.org/?way=24873711


TERTIARY - all importand (connection-) roads (no colored sign) .
Priority over other crossing roads (the other roads have a stop sign)
Speed limit is 80 km/h if no sign defines something lower.
Mapnik color: █████

In Israel the people does not separating beween trunk roads primety roads. I suggest that all the that the road in israel will mark:

Motorway marked with A in the start. exp: 20 -> A20, 6 -> A6, 22 -> A22, 4 (Some parts)-> A4.
True Trunk roads(without traffic lights & junctions) marked with T. exp: 2 -> T2, 4 (Some parts)-> T4, 77 (Some parts)-> T77
("fake" trunk roads will become primety roads).
Primety roads remain only with number. exp: 705 -> 705, 75 (Some parts)-> 75, 89 -> 89, 4 (Some parts)-> 4.
Secondary roads marked with L(Local) in the start instead of there last digit. exp: 7513 -> L715, 4111 -> L411

Last edited by Son Grove (2012-10-22 10:54:16)

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#43 2012-10-22 10:45:42

yrtimiD
Moderator
From: Israel
Registered: 2010-10-08
Posts: 234

Re: Highway classification

Son Grove wrote:

Motorway marked with M in the start. exp: 20 -> A20, 6 -> A6, 22 -> A22, 4 (Some parts)-> A4.
True Trunk roads(without traffic lights & junctions) marked with T. exp: 2 -> T2, 4 (Some parts)-> T4, 77 (Some parts)-> T77
("fake" trunk roads will become primety roads).
Primety roads remain only with number. exp: 705 -> 705, 75 (Some parts)-> 75, 89 -> 89, 4 (Some parts)-> 4.
Secondary roads marked with L(Local) in the start instead of there last digit. exp: 7513 -> L715, 4111 -> L411

Why exactly to do this? That's why we have different colors in renderers for different road types!

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#44 2012-10-22 11:01:02

Son Grove
Member
Registered: 2012-10-22
Posts: 5

Re: Highway classification

yrtimiD wrote:
Son Grove wrote:

Motorway marked with A in the start. exp: 20 -> A20, 6 -> A6, 22 -> A22, 4 (Some parts)-> A4.
True Trunk roads(without traffic lights & junctions) marked with T. exp: 2 -> T2, 4 (Some parts)-> T4, 77 (Some parts)-> T77
("fake" trunk roads will become primety roads).
Primety roads remain only with number. exp: 705 -> 705, 75 (Some parts)-> 75, 89 -> 89, 4 (Some parts)-> 4.
Secondary roads marked with L(Local) in the start instead of there last digit. exp: 7513 -> L715, 4111 -> L411

Why exactly to do this? That's why we have different colors in renderers for different road types!

First, In Israel the people does not separating beween trunk roads primety roads. You can see not small number of exceptions (at least in the future).

Second , In alot of countries the roads marked will one letter before the number to help people to separate.

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#45 2012-10-22 11:52:16

yrtimiD
Moderator
From: Israel
Registered: 2010-10-08
Posts: 234

Re: Highway classification

Son Grove, I understand the problem, and so I asking you, why color coding isn't enough? On each map you see legend which describes you what exactly each color mean.

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#46 2012-10-22 12:42:08

Mr_Israel
Moderator
From: Israel, Germany
Registered: 2009-03-02
Posts: 513

Re: Highway classification

Son Grove,

You are right that in some countries the roads are marked with a A, T and L.
But not in Israel as the state of Israel doesn't differentiate with letters but with colors.
You will not find a road that has a letter in from of its definition. So why should we create new standard that knowbody will understand.
The number of the road is surrounded of a colored sign. This color defines the road type.

- Blue is motorway
- Red is trunk
- Green is primary
- Brown / Black is secondary

We are following also with this rule the definition in Wikipedia.
Example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ILjun … sharim.png

Even if the Israelis themself don't know/ see or feel the difference there is a clear definition how it should be.

My current problem is that a lot of correct definitions have been changed by you and we need to revert them asap, as currently road types are mixed.

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#47 2012-10-24 12:06:25

Mr_Israel
Moderator
From: Israel, Germany
Registered: 2009-03-02
Posts: 513

Re: Highway classification

I recommend to revert all change sets of Son Grove made in his first days that include street definition changes.
Its really mad I have to tell that to a such active member like Son Grove.

Currently there is already a huge mess in our street definition that is irreparable by manual reverting.
And I was sooo happy that my GPS got the correct street definitions 4 weeks ago sad

@Son Grove: Did you understand the definition that we set up for Israel in Openstreetmap?
Or are there any other questions about it?

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#48 2012-10-24 17:38:29

BMM994
Member
Registered: 2012-07-12
Posts: 12

Re: Highway classification

I agree with Mr_Israel, becuase Israel looks now like a mess with different colors..... sad hmm

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#49 2012-10-28 22:22:18

yrtimiD
Moderator
From: Israel
Registered: 2010-10-08
Posts: 234

Re: Highway classification

I started some reverts (see http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=17758)

As we see, too much people likes to change highway definitions, so to prevent future "surprises" I have created rule to watch changes of 4 top level road types whithin Israel borders (including Yehuda & Shomron) using some test service (http://osm102.openstreetmap.fr/~zorglub/watch/#):
Here is an RSS link: http://osm102.openstreetmap.fr/~zorglub … E7ajCHbAMA
Feel free to subscribe and watch.

Last edited by yrtimiD (2012-11-03 22:23:10)

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#50 2012-11-29 13:23:08

GPSisrael
Member
Registered: 2012-11-29
Posts: 1

Re: Highway classification

Dear friends, I am working on some application and I need a file with all the roads speed limits in Israel. (Not only speed cameras but all the roads speed limits).  Where can I find a file with all that information? I will much appreciate your reply here or by PM to me. All ideas/options/offers are welcome. Thank you and have a great day. smile

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