You are not logged in.

#51 2010-11-27 22:10:02

dimka
Member
Registered: 2010-04-01
Posts: 257

Re: Israel Hiking map

Nop wrote:

Your symbols definitely are _stripes not _bars. The multicolored case could be done with a _stripe_left in orange or in white. Is that list complete or is that only some examples?

I believe this list is all we need, without the last two entries.
In theory (i.e. according to the back of ITC maps), there also exist two-stripe markings with one stripe white and the other  black/green/red/blue, for the so-called "urban trails".

Offline

#52 2010-11-27 22:14:38

talkat
Member
Registered: 2009-03-06
Posts: 381

Re: Israel Hiking map

dimka wrote:
talkat wrote:

See our wiki here
If it's not clear, let's work on clearing this.

1. What is RTG (Sorry for my ignorance)?
2. How to choose lwn/nwn/ncn/lcn etc.
3. How does one tell the operator?

1) RTG = Rashut HaTeva VeHaGanim.

2) I suggest that if it's a local initiative, like the Nes Ziona Bike Route, then it's l*n. Otherwise it's n*n.
In most cases it's a hiking route, unless it's a specific bike route, like the TLV-JM-Bike-Route.

Actually, some of the routes are marked as for off-road vehicles (think 4x4, Jeeps, etc.) but in essence it's a hiking route.

3) That's a tricky one...
The ITC is the one that paints the shields on all official routes in Israel.
Some of the routes are inside KKL or RTG areas (and residential, and open areas, etc.)

However, some of the routes are maintained by others, like the TLV-JM-Bike-Route, which is maintained by KKL, and bears a different kind of shield (not 3-stripes, but sort of a circle with an image and an arrow)

And news from this week: RTG has 5 new bike routes as a pilot.

talkat.

Last edited by talkat (2010-11-27 22:26:08)

Offline

#53 2010-11-28 00:47:05

DoK
Member
Registered: 2010-11-24
Posts: 28

Re: Israel Hiking map

I suggest (and have previously sugested the same) adopting the standard nwn/lwn and that all but the national routes will be taged as locale.
This is in acordance with the ITC colouring scheme.
This is also in acordance with the distance of the routes (it's extremely easy to tell the national routes from locale ones).
I'm not sure KKL formaly maintains trail marking in the form of the regular coloured stones (which we reffer to in the map) but KKL does use different markers then the regular ITC ones (mostly estatic wooden signposts with colourde triangles and the name of the route).
I suggest the thumb law - all three colours routes will be marked as operator=itc

Offline

#54 2010-11-28 07:19:16

talkat
Member
Registered: 2009-03-06
Posts: 381

Re: Israel Hiking map

DoK wrote:

I suggest (and have previously sugested the same) adopting the standard nwn/lwn and that all but the national routes will be taged as locale.

I agree. Sounds good.

What about this refinement?

Natioanl: nwn
3-colors: rwn
Transparent: lwn

DoK wrote:

I'm not sure KKL formaly maintains trail marking in the form of the regular coloured stones (which we reffer to in the map) but KKL does use different markers then the regular ITC ones (mostly estatic wooden signposts with colourde triangles and the name of the route).

As I wrote above, KKL has its own type of markings.
But for now, all the renderers support only 3-color-markings, so let's stick with them.

Maybe we should see if we could help Lonvia and/or hikebikemap to support our markings as well.
That way we will have our lovely map, and hopefully, other countries would be able to benefit from it.

DoK wrote:

I suggest the thumb law - all three colours routes will be marked as operator=itc

Can you go over the routes that are maintained by KKL and set operator=kkl ?
Or find their list in the KKL web site?


I wonder if a complete list of all marked routes is available.
We can produce one, with colour, trailhead, length, etc.
but it's far from benig complete, but maybe if we have it, people would see OSM's benefit here, and contribute to make the list complete.


talkat.

Last edited by talkat (2010-11-28 07:23:05)

Offline

#55 2010-11-28 08:04:02

talkat
Member
Registered: 2009-03-06
Posts: 381

Re: Israel Hiking map

talkat wrote:

I wonder if a complete list of all marked routes is available.
We can produce one, with colour, trailhead, length, etc.
but it's far from benig complete, but maybe if we have it, people would see OSM's benefit here, and contribute to make the list complete.

Something like this... :-)

It's a work in progress. Need to add images for the shields, divide into networks, etc.

talkat.

Offline

#56 2010-11-28 09:35:38

DoK
Member
Registered: 2010-11-24
Posts: 28

Re: Israel Hiking map

My previous proposal (somewhere in the first page of this thread) was
Nationl routes - nwn
Shvil Israel is a typical member of this group
White:colour:white - lwn
Kisalon northen scenic route (BTW the name is official as it appears on KKL signposts along the route) is a typical member
Special (mostly KKL initiatives) - rwn
This is soewheat gray area but the JM-TLV bicycle route probably falls here

I will check later about the usage in other countries.

The current table has good choice of fields.

Offline

#57 2010-11-28 13:10:09

dimka
Member
Registered: 2010-04-01
Posts: 257

Re: Israel Hiking map

My suggestion:

route=hiking:
nwn - INT only
rwn - Special named (Golan, Jesus, Emek Ha'Ma'ayanot, Sovev Kineret, Jerusalem)  and the unnamed long "regional" routes (purple)
lwn - all the rest

route=bicycle:
ncn - the future "Israel Cycle Route"
rcn - JM-TLV, "Sovev Kineret" for bicycles
lcn - all the rest (e.g. Ness Ziona Scenic, Canada Park Black)

Last edited by dimka (2010-11-28 13:14:34)

Offline

#58 2010-11-28 13:18:14

talkat
Member
Registered: 2009-03-06
Posts: 381

Re: Israel Hiking map

dimka wrote:

My suggestion:

route=hiking:
nwn - INT only
rwn - Special named (Golan, Jesus, Emek Ha'Ma'ayanot, Sovev Kineret, Jerusalem)  and the unnamed long "regional" routes (purple)
lwn - all the rest

route=bicycle:
ncn - the future "Israel Cycle Route"
rcn - JM-TLV, "Sovev Kineret" for bicycles
lcn - all the rest (e.g. Ness Ziona Scenic, Canada Park Black)

I'm ok with this suggestion.
Shall we make it our standard?
(I've pm'd DoK for confirmation)

talkat.

Offline

#59 2010-11-28 13:46:23

DoK
Member
Registered: 2010-11-24
Posts: 28

Re: Israel Hiking map

Looks good.
Should the default be hiking and bicycle=yes (my favorite) or bicycle and foot=yes
Example - the black route of canada

Offline

#60 2010-11-28 13:58:39

talkat
Member
Registered: 2009-03-06
Posts: 381

Re: Israel Hiking map

Ok, so this is our current standard:

route=hiking:
nwn - INT only
rwn - Special named (Golan, Jesus, Emek Ha'Ma'ayanot, Sovev Kineret, Jerusalem)  and the unnamed long "regional" routes (purple)
lwn - all the rest

route=bicycle:
ncn - the future "Israel Cycle Route"
rcn - JM-TLV, "Sovev Kineret" for bicycles
lcn - all the rest (e.g. Ness Ziona Scenic, Canada Park Black)

talkat.

Offline

#61 2010-11-28 22:13:09

dimka
Member
Registered: 2010-04-01
Posts: 257

Re: Israel Hiking map

DoK wrote:

Looks good.
Should the default be hiking and bicycle=yes (my favorite) or bicycle and foot=yes
Example - the black route of canada

You mean, the trail is marked both as hiking (by ITC) and separately for biking? If yes, then I guess there should be 2 separate relations?

Offline

#62 2010-11-28 22:16:02

dimka
Member
Registered: 2010-04-01
Posts: 257

Re: Israel Hiking map

talkat wrote:

Ok, so this is our current standard

I have reorganized the list of all trails accordingly.

Offline

#63 2010-11-29 06:20:44

talkat
Member
Registered: 2009-03-06
Posts: 381

Re: Israel Hiking map

dimka wrote:

I have reorganized the list of all trails accordingly.

That wiki page is machine generated from the planet file.
Please don't edit it by hand.

In the future please send me your edits and I'll add them to the script that created it.
I've incorporated your latest edits, so no need to send those.


If you want to change values of the routes (move them, change name, marking, etc.) then do it on the osm data itself, and it will be picked up next time I generate this page. :-)

talkat.

Offline

#64 2010-11-29 09:00:57

DoK
Member
Registered: 2010-11-24
Posts: 28

Re: Israel Hiking map

dimka wrote:
DoK wrote:

Looks good.
Should the default be hiking and bicycle=yes (my favorite) or bicycle and foot=yes
Example - the black route of canada

You mean, the trail is marked both as hiking (by ITC) and separately for biking? If yes, then I guess there should be 2 separate relations?

AFAIK There are no official ITC trails for bicycles.
KKL marked some trails specifically for bicycles (bicycle in a circle and an arrow in the advancing direction, all black).
Other trails even if builed for bicycles are officially (as I understand it) hiking trails (Haruvit, Masua-Agur-Masua).
bicycle=yes is a legal declaration that bicycles are permitted.
This is not true on hiking trails in all RTG areas (there's currently a declaration of a pilot alowing bicycles in 5 trails) where bicycles are only permitted on vehicles roads.
This is true or at least not enforced in all other areas.

Anyway I propose to default for hiking and bicycle=yes in all but RTG areas.

Offline

#65 2010-11-29 10:05:09

DoK
Member
Registered: 2010-11-24
Posts: 28

Re: Israel Hiking map

I see the auto-list has the currently used _bar symbols.
Aren't we switching to stripes?

Offline

#66 2010-11-29 10:17:34

talkat
Member
Registered: 2009-03-06
Posts: 381

Re: Israel Hiking map

DoK wrote:

I see the auto-list has the currently used _bar symbols.
Aren't we switching to stripes?

Yes, we are switching to stripes.
I've created shield markings and uploaded them to the wiki with stripes.

I'll try and change all *_bar to *_stripe this week.
You (and anyone else) can help. The list is quite complete.
Just take a relation and edit its osmc:symbol tag.

talkat.

Offline

#67 2010-11-29 12:49:23

dimka
Member
Registered: 2010-04-01
Posts: 257

Re: Israel Hiking map

talkat,
maybe your extraction script can be augmented to automatically change the osmc:symbol tag?

I will investigate how to write JOSM plugins.

Offline

#68 2010-11-29 14:15:25

talkat
Member
Registered: 2009-03-06
Posts: 381

Re: Israel Hiking map

dimka wrote:

maybe your extraction script can be augmented to automatically change the osmc:symbol tag?

It's just a reporting script.

I'm not sure I like batch-editing. It can be hazardeous.
We have a bad experience with it.
At one point we wanted to translate all names from the GeonetNameServer to Hebrew, and we ended up with 3 nodes instead of one.
We still have some lurking around...

dimka wrote:

I will investigate how to write JOSM plugins.

I already changed everything to *_stripe.
I also contacted Lonvia, to have the map support our 3-colors markings.

talkat.

Offline

#69 2010-12-01 06:21:40

talkat
Member
Registered: 2009-03-06
Posts: 381

Re: Israel Hiking map

Updates from Lonvia's Hiking Map:
It now supports our 3 color markings for the Israel Trail and the Golan Trail.
See example here.

There's also added support for orange_stripe, which was missing.


Mind you, Lonvia's is a hiking map, so cycling routes are not supported.

These are supported by the Cycle Map on the main OSM site,
and hikebikemap.

talkat.

Offline

#70 2010-12-01 07:16:39

DoK
Member
Registered: 2010-11-24
Posts: 28

Re: Israel Hiking map

Very good news!
Want more good news?!
Colin has implemented support for black bars and stripes!

The cycle map is (for now) an odd combination of required topography, extremely slow updating and selective routes representation.

Offline

#71 2010-12-01 07:31:32

talkat
Member
Registered: 2009-03-06
Posts: 381

Re: Israel Hiking map

talkat wrote:
talkat wrote:

I wonder if a complete list of all marked routes is available.
We can produce one, with colour, trailhead, length, etc.
but it's far from benig complete, but maybe if we have it, people would see OSM's benefit here, and contribute to make the list complete.

Something like this... :-)

If you have any comments - Feel free to write them in the Talk Page of the IsraelTrail wiki page.

I've added counters, so you can follow the progress.
Today (1/Dec) we have 100 marked trails. Yesterday (30/Nov) we had 86.
WOW!

talkat.

Offline

#72 2010-12-01 07:33:41

dimka
Member
Registered: 2010-04-01
Posts: 257

Re: Israel Hiking map

talkat wrote:

Mind you, Lonvia's is a hiking map, so cycling routes are not supported.

These are supported by the Cycle Map on the main OSM site,
and hikebikemap.

I don't see any biking routes on hikebikemap yet...

Offline

#73 2010-12-01 07:43:16

dimka
Member
Registered: 2010-04-01
Posts: 257

Re: Israel Hiking map

talkat wrote:

If you have any comments - Feel free to write them in the Talk Page of the IsraelTrail wiki page.

You've got a comment :-)

Offline

#74 2010-12-01 07:45:12

talkat
Member
Registered: 2009-03-06
Posts: 381

Re: Israel Hiking map

dimka wrote:
talkat wrote:

Mind you, Lonvia's is a hiking map, so cycling routes are not supported.

These are supported by the Cycle Map on the main OSM site,
and hikebikemap.

I don't see any biking routes on hikebikemap yet...

Only those with *_stripe.
The biking routes with *_dot are not yet supported.
I'll contact Colin about this.

talkat.

Offline

#75 2010-12-01 07:50:40

dimka
Member
Registered: 2010-04-01
Posts: 257

Re: Israel Hiking map

talkat wrote:

Updates from Lonvia's Hiking Map:
It now supports our 3 color markings for the Israel Trail and the Golan Trail.
See example here.

There's also added support for orange_stripe, which was missing.

Maybe the order of the stripes for INT and Golan should be reversed? See here.

Offline

Board footer

Powered by FluxBB